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N. x "Black Dragon" and x "Sabre"

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Oct 17, 2002
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Hi guys,

I saw these 2 hybrid from exotica and was interested to know what 2 parents made up of Black Dragon and the Sabre?  If anybody have the info please let me know.  And also the x Marbled Dragon, this hybrid is also nice too, but exotica doesn't post the parents.
 
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Sorry, its a trade secret. My best guesses, (so far), Sabre looks like it could be a [(maxima x thorelii) x trusmadiensis] hybrid. Black Dragon could be izumiae x truncata. Marbled Dragon is maxima-dark x truncata. What about Red Dragon which could be thorelii x truncata?
 
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I have also looked at some fotos about those 2 hybrids...and I can tell you that they are also cuties!
Bye!

Mr_Aga
Milan
 
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I like that X "black dragon". I just ordered one from cooks. Does anyone know anything about it? Is it the izumiae x truncata?
 

JB_OrchidGuy

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See now that is messed up. What about the folks that breed with these things. It would be nice to know the parent that make it up. Thats why there needs to be a registry with the hybrids in it so you can register it. Heck there can even have patents on hybrids too. There is others ways to protect the hybrid other than secrecy.
 
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i always thought Sabre looked like it had some ventricosa in it. Red Dragon is not thorelii x truncata though, I have one of those, and the coloration is VERY differnent (mottled instead of solid red), and the peristome doesnt "pinch" in the middle like Red Dragon does
 
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I actually posted about this on CPUK just yesterday. Someone told me to email Geoff, so I did, and got a reply today:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]

Hi Ronald,

These varieties are a part of our pot plant range and for commercial reasons we are not divulging their parentage. However, if it helps, they will grow in a wide range of conditions.

Regards,

Geoff Mansell

guess we'll never know for sure....
 
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Oct 17, 2002
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I thought the same thing too about "Sabre" that it would have some ventricosa in it but the other parents i don't have no clue about. I think it helps a lot if any one would post more pic of the black dragon or the sabre cuz i tried to find pic and ended with the same pic that exotica posted on their website. It is really hard to find similarity with only one pic and one side.
confused.gif
 
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ooooo its like the twilight zone!!!! Its sad, it might be a trade secret but it should still be registered somewhere, So if the nursery goes broke a piece of science wont be missing for all eternity. Thats like producing a giant venus fly trap and never ever being able to know where it came from.... Its agrivating
confused.gif
 
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Nepenthes around the house has a pic of the izumiae x truncata but it looks different then the X "black dragon". Who was it that made the predator? You would think they would want to keep that to themselves if it's about the money.
 
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Look at the peristome morphology and pitcher coloration of all the Dragons. They all include a distinct point in the middle of the bottom of the peristome. Using "retrosynthetic" means, the only species that comes to my mind that posesses that trait that strongly, and passes it along to its hybrids, is N. veitchii. Compare a truncata*veitchii with the Black Dragon; similar pitcher morphology. Now, as for the color...its almost black with a green mottled with black spots interior. What species posses that trait that strongly? N. ramispina. Seeing as its exotica, and they make complicated hybrids, I wouldn't doubt that it is ((truncata x veitchii) x ramispina), or some permutation of the aformentioned combination. Thats what it is in my mind anyway haha...
 
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Ok after going to exotica and went through all the hybrid pic, amazingly i found 2 exact pic for the 2 dragons. Srduggins was right on the 2 dragons, the "Marbled Dragon" was a cross between the maxima-dark and the truncata. The "Red Dragon" was a cross between thorelii(D) and the truncata© that they. Ok two down, 2 more to go.
 

Pyro

N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (huy716 @ Oct. 13 2006,3:18)]Ok after going to exotica and went through all the hybrid pic, amazingly i found 2 exact pic for the 2 dragons.  Srduggins was right on the 2 dragons, the "Marbled Dragon" was a cross between the maxima-dark and the truncata.  The "Red Dragon" was a cross between thorelii(D) and the truncata© that they.  Ok two down, 2 more to go.
I did the same thing and the 'Black Dragon' is izumae x truncata. The picture is a mirror between the two
 
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With 'black dragon' and 'jungle bells' you can't tell for sure what the parentage is because they don't use the same photograph. I'd say pyro's deduction for 'Black Dragon' is probably correct since the pictures do look like the same cross (perhaps even the same plant). 'Jungle Bells' could be any one of exotica's crosses between ventricosa and sibuyanensis (they have at least three).
 
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There are several reasons for keeping the parentage secret which have nothing to do with greed. (And if you know the Mansells, they hardly seem greedy to me).

1) If they reveal their TC parentage, people will start calling all crosses by this name which is just wrong. By keeping the parentage "secret", their seed grown stock retains more of its value, (as it should), and it prevents a lot of confusion in the market place. This has already happened anyway with many people referring to seed-grown thorelii x truncata as 'Red Dragon'.

2) There is much variation in seed grown hybrids and how anyone can look at a single example of a hybrid cross and since it is different from another example declare that the two are not the same cross is just ignorant. Personally, I appreciate the variation in the seed grown hybrids and grow several different forms of many individual crosses. Another good reason to differentiate between the TC lot and the seed grown ones. Since there will be many TC plants in culture, people will begin to know what to expect from them and the seed-grown plants will continue to be unique and hopefully provide pleasant surprises.

3) I also bought these TC clones as they are great examples of the crosses and may prove to be good parents on their own. I see no problem with having a "Black Dragon" as a parent instead of the actual species involved. In time, these crosses will attain their own cultural and characteristics knowledge base which will be more informative than knowing the parents.

4) By not releasing the parents, they are reinforcing their own names and pointing out the need to improve the registration rules and process.

5) Some people are hybrid snobs and by giving these varieties their own names, they reinforce their belief that these should be judged on their own merits and not how they compare to their parents. BTW, they are the creators of Predator and just look at how many people compare it to hamata. IME, I have focused too much on pitcher appearance and not enough on overall plant characteristics. Sure hamata has a nicer peristome, (and isn't that why we grow these), but Predator is an overall better plant from a cultural perspective, IMO.

6) I believe the parents are no real great secret and many people have been able to figure them out. If they really wanted to keep them secret they wouldn't have used the same pictures on their web site.

7) I find it kind of fun to play detective. Originally I thought Sabre was ventricosa x Trusmadiensis, but since that cross doesn't excell in hot conditions, I think they may have found that (maxima x thorelii) x TM is the better grower, and they do look similar. (Although the recent picture I've seen of (maxima x thorelii) x TM doesn't look anything like Sabre, hybrids do change a lot as the pitchers mature, (esp. with lowii in the mix), and since we are the first to grow these plants we get to experience the wonder of watching the pitchers change as they mature first hand. Another reason I love to grow hybrids! (plus they are usually much easier to grow).

End Rant.

BTW, I have no affilliation or inside knowledge of EP, so these are all just my own opinions.
 
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