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Joined
Jul 28, 2012
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Des Moines, IA
Hey guys, I've been spotty being on in this last year. So I've really been focused on temperate sarracenia and sundews the last 8 years, but I've been getting the itch to explore more nepenthes besides my old Ventrata (which was labeled as alata when I bought it).
I was on ebay today looking at Neps...I'm finding seeds from seller elbertwijaya, with the seller sending seeds from Singapore, would those more likely be poached seeds?
I'd like to try some highland neps, but I'm afraid I can't give them the 10 degree or more drop at night that I hear they need to thrive. Or can you get by with species like attenboroughii without a large temp drop?
 

curtisconners

Greetings from the netherworld.
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Columbus Ohio, U.S.
That doesn't even seem like they would be real seeds. EBay is notorious for false seeds and if they are real, the long ship would give you a low germination rate. I suggest trying the classifieds and trading post on terraforums.
 

NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
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That doesn't even seem like they would be real seeds. EBay is notorious for false seeds and if they are real, the long ship would give you a low germination rate. I suggest trying the classifieds and trading post on terraforums.
Uhhh not really.
These guys that are selling seeds from singapore/malaysia usually are pretty good
With identifying their plants, but 95% sure they will be poached. Ive bought a few before
And their germination rates were great. However, DO NOT buy poached seeds, especially if
You cant provide the correct conditions for them.
 

curtisconners

Greetings from the netherworld.
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Uhhh not really.
These guys that are selling seeds from singapore/malaysia usually are pretty good
With identifying their plants, but 95% sure they will be poached. Ive bought a few before
And their germination rates were great. However, DO NOT buy poached seeds, especially if
You cant provide the correct conditions for them.

Ok, my mistake. There are still some nepenthes seeds available on the trading post though.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Des Moines, IA
My thougths exactly. I'd be nice to try some unique highland neps without breaking the bank, but not if they're poached. I'm just afraid that I would drop a lot of money on some and then kill them. Just not up for the doing the whole fridge thing or whatever people do to keep them going.
 

NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
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Ive never heard of paperwork for seeds. What paperwork is involved?
 
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Joined
Oct 29, 2008
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Saginaw, TX USA
Here is my rambelings from the last time I imported anything, it may or may not be helpful. I received everything I ordered without issue, even with some sellers shipping incorrectly.

http://www.terraforums.com/forums/general-discussions/135577-usda-permit-madness.html?highlight=

In my opinion, common seeds like Nep maxima variations are probably not poached and safe, but anything rare or hard to grow is very likely poached and may be a natural hybrid/variation not listed on the description. You can generally ask a few questions to the seller and find the bad ones real fast. Most growers have atleast some knowledge of when the plant was cross and what male/female they used. Things like "Harvesting time February 21,2016", "There are tons of possibilities of growing nepenthes from wild seeds.they may germinate into an turn out to be true species or maybe becoming natural hybrids between another species around the habitat.", and "You never know what kind of species that grow beside the hills or maybe in the next cliffs. i only make some assumptions that the mother plants that we take the seedpods from are the species that i mention for sale right now." are clearly wild collected either legally or illegally it would depend on the species and country of origin.

Keep in mind that just because you get all the proper paperwork and all your ducks in a row, the seller can still just put them in the mail (usually marked as hobby supplies) and ignore US laws. After all they won't get into any trouble and it is more work for them to follow our laws.

The down side to this is that you "could" still be held responsible for improperly importing whatever, so make sure and keep your paper trail to blame the other guy :)

Baby Neps are fun, but starting with some of the giveaway crosses might be a better option. I've had good germination with the two TF crosses I've received.
 

Ngantnier

Formerly pond boy
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Location
Onawa, IA
Most of the eBay seeds are fake. Albermarelsounds and ******************* have real, fresh seeds. Most of the seeds are wild collected. But from what I've heard they only harvest a couple of pods. Out of dozens per plant. Taking some seed from the wild really doesn't impact the population. Because it takes thousands of seeds in nature to get a Nepenthes to sexual maturity. Obviously captive bred would be better though. It seems the offspring would be more vigorous, as the less vigorous plants in cultivation would have been weeded out.
 

NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
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Most of the eBay seeds are fake. Albermarelsounds and ******************* have real, fresh seeds. Most of the seeds are wild collected. But from what I've heard they only harvest a couple of pods. Out of dozens per plant. Taking some seed from the wild really doesn't impact the population. Because it takes thousands of seeds in nature to get a Nepenthes to sexual maturity. Obviously captive bred would be better though. It seems the offspring would be more vigorous, as the less vigorous plants in cultivation would have been weeded out.

LOL nah. Ive seen ALOT of photos with aber holding an entire pod stalk.
These guys are not sustainable/conservative. They dont care and theyre all reckless.

You should only buy poached seed if you are 101% serious about the cultivation of
said seeds. From seedling, to flowering, to re-distribution.
 
Joined
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You should only buy poached seed if you are 101% serious about the cultivation of
said seeds. From seedling, to flowering, to re-distribution.

101% agree with this. :) It is a lot more ethical to spend more money on a plant to see if you can grow it over spending very little on poached seeds and saying "Oh well" if they fail.
 

NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
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101% agree with this. :) It is a lot more ethical to spend more money on a plant to see if you can grow it over spending very little on poached seeds and saying "Oh well" if they fail.

Exactly.

In my eyes, If you buy poached seed, you have an obligation to uphold.
These plants were taken from the wild (their perfect environment) only
for a mere 7.34. Species and habitat loss is not worth seven dollars a pod.

However.. Since these seeds were already doomed by poacher in the first place,
does that mean the experienced should be buying them and growing them to make sure theyre
falling into the RIGHT hands? ???
 
Joined
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However.. Since these seeds were already doomed by poacher in the first place,
does that mean the experienced should be buying them and growing them to make sure theyre
falling into the RIGHT hands? ???

This is very true, and it seems like there isn't an easy right answer to this problem. Perhaps an experienced grower may purchase them but always leave a negative review to deter new growers? Maybe it will slow their business while not wasting the seeds.
 

chibae

An orchid fancier with a CP problem
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mid-Atlantic coast, USA
Exactly.

In my eyes, If you buy poached seed, you have an obligation to uphold.
These plants were taken from the wild (their perfect environment) only
for a mere 7.34. Species and habitat loss is not worth seven dollars a pod.

However.. Since these seeds were already doomed by poacher in the first place,
does that mean the experienced should be buying them and growing them to make sure theyre
falling into the RIGHT hands? ???

By buying the seeds people are rewarding the poachers. Chances are good that the pods will have most if not all of their content destroyed by long delays between picking and sowing, and by the post office rollers if sent in a flat envelope.
I personally feel that it is better for some pods to end up "wasted" and the poachers have no market, therefore no incentive to do further poaching.
Saying that "they are already picked" to me is just a justification for buying them.
 

NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Zone 5
This is very true, and it seems like there isn't an easy right answer to this problem. Perhaps an experienced grower may purchase them but always leave a negative review to deter new growers? Maybe it will slow their business while not wasting the seeds.

Negative reviews dont stop people from buying on ebay. (Im one of them.)
Besides, Its just one bad review, and every vendor has a handful.
Its discouragement, but not everybody reads reviews either.


By buying the seeds people are rewarding the poachers. Chances are good that the pods will have most if not all of their content destroyed by long delays between picking and sowing, and by the post office rollers if sent in a flat envelope.
I personally feel that it is better for some pods to end up "wasted" and the poachers have no market, therefore no incentive to do further poaching.
Saying that "they are already picked" to me is just a justification for buying them.

Ive bought seeds before when I didnt know any better. A month or two of shipping, and I still got over 50%
germination. It depends on how fresh, and who you bought from.

The sad part is, I watch ebay very often. MAny times Have I seen various
pods for sale, and nobody will buy a perticular batch. After 6 months, that vendor
throws out the ancient stock, then re-fills with new pods regardless if people are
buying or not. Its an endless greedy cycle, and they dont stop. No matter if business
is poor or thriving. Its easy for them, so they continue.


and the "already picked" part - You CAN say its a justification for buying them or not,
but to me, it comes down to this -- Wild/endangered seed is in jeopardy and it has a chance to go to somebody who knows
what theyre doing.

Its pretty much good as dead if nobody does right with them, or anything with them for that matter.
I absolutely hate the thought of supporting these people, but I feel that there is a slight
obligation to make sure that these seeds are being preserved and falling into the right hands,
other than having them go to the novice growers who say "oh well" if they kick the bucket.

Not buying is a good way to cut SOME profit from them, but there will always be
someone out there buying a pod or two, and thats all it takes to make them nuke the local seed population.
In the end, seeds are wasted that could have been saved if a seedling program or dedicated grower made the choice to save a few.

I believe it can be justified if good growers buy these seeds for rehabilitation and development, however
there is also a multitude of choices, options, ethics and obligations that go along with this issue.

There is no correct answer for this problem.
 

chibae

An orchid fancier with a CP problem
Joined
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Messages
1,588
Location
mid-Atlantic coast, USA
Negative reviews dont stop people from buying on ebay. (Im one of them.)
Besides, Its just one bad review, and every vendor has a handful.
Its discouragement, but not everybody reads reviews either.




Ive bought seeds before when I didnt know any better. A month or two of shipping, and I still got over 50%
germination. It depends on how fresh, and who you bought from.

The sad part is, I watch ebay very often. MAny times Have I seen various
pods for sale, and nobody will buy a perticular batch. After 6 months, that vendor
throws out the ancient stock, then re-fills with new pods regardless if people are
buying or not. Its an endless greedy cycle, and they dont stop. No matter if business
is poor or thriving. Its easy for them, so they continue.


And the "already picked" part - You CAN say its a justification for buying them or not,
but to me, it comes down to this -- Wild/endangered seed is in jeopardy and it has a chance to go to somebody who knows
what theyre doing.

Sorry but I DO say you're justifying. Hey it's already picked so I might as well. After all I know what I'm doing.

Its pretty much good as dead if nobody does right with them, or anything with them for that matter.
I absolutely hate the thought of supporting these people, but I feel that there is a slight
obligation to make sure that these seeds are being preserved and falling into the right hands,
other than having them go to the novice growers who say "oh well" if they kick the bucket.

So you feel that it is somehow noble to buy poached seed because the seed is better off out of the hands of a novice. Sheesh, free market and seed goes to the highest bidder.
This is where we fundamentally disagree. I hate the idea of poaching and because of that I will not support it. Period. Full stop.

Not buying is a good way to cut SOME profit from them, but there will always be
someone out there buying a pod or two, and thats all it takes to make them nuke the local seed population.
In the end, seeds are wasted that could have been saved if a seedling program or dedicated grower made the choice to save a few.

The funny thing is, you are supporting a poacher by buying the seed with no guarantee if it is even the species you are trying to "protect"

I believe it can be justified if good growers buy these seeds for rehabilitation and development, however
there is also a multitude of choices, options, ethics and obligations that go along with this issue.

How in the world can you say that "choices, options, ethics and obligations" are any part of CHOOSING to support poaching?

There is no correct answer for this problem.
I have already given you one

I have answered your points above in red.
 

Ngantnier

Formerly pond boy
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
437
Location
Onawa, IA
It really is a judgement call. On the one hand you're removing some seeds from the wild. On the other you're insuring the species survival if you get good germination rates and trade/give away seedlings. For example I purchased a pod of N.maxima "mini" a bit over a year ago, now I have 43 beautiful little Nepenthes I will have to get rid of most of by the winter. Would even a single one of these have sprouted and survived in the wild? Doubtful. There's pros and cons like anything. Should people without skill purchase rarer species? I don't think so. I think the seeds of the rare\endangered species should only be handled by individuals like Jeremiah Harris, Rob Cantley, Andreas Wistuba and others which can propagate them on a commercial scale. Since with some species every seed really does matter. It would be great if there were programs for reintroducing them into the wild before the only ones left are in cultivation. Which destroys biodiversity because most plants that remain in cultivation long tern are clones. Though biodiversity can be gained again through evolution. It takes a long time though and they won't be the same species. Genus survival is really the most important. Luckily the rarest species tend to be ultra-highlanders that are very difficult to access. Preventing most poaching, and saving them from development.
 
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