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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It's not just Christians who beleive in the Flood.  Almost every single culture in the world has stories of a great flood that covered the earth.  Coincidence?

These people didn't have satellite photos, mass media, global communication... they didn't even know the earth was round, or how massive it actually was. They lived in an entirely different intellectual environment and people today are constantly forgetting that fact. The amount of knowledge about the world we're using so casually to form our conclusions here would be beyond inconceivable to them. Every major disaster to a primitive isolated culture is a "global" one.

And I'm sure the stories those other cultures have (I'm betting it's more than just a few) about history continuing along just fine through the alleged time of the flood will be conveniently overlooked, as well as whether or not the timelines of all those flood stories even remotely coincide.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As for Noah not being in the history books, that's because the history books don't want people complaining as soon as they add anything "religious".  The fact is that the old testament is the book of ancient Jewish history.

Separation of church and state is a brand spanking new development in human society. Much if not most of history shows religion in charge of (or at least guiding/corrupting) what gets taught to people. I would think you wouldn't be able to find Jesus in a history book if "religiousness" is all it takes for something to get written out.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And it wasn't a matter of God breaking the laws of nature, rather, he was using nature to do what he wanted.

As Alpha said, they were most certainly broken.

This thread is long enough without adding the Noah stuff to it too. It's a total waste of time talking science to people who can actually believe in a literal flood, because "God intervened" is universally applicable to any of their claims, rendering science irrelevant and useless (unless they think they can use it selectively to back up a claim). I say we make our way back to evolution/creationism, if there's even anything left to say at this point. I think just about everyone here already knows which information they're giving credence to and which they're ignoring.
 
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But the flood is integral to the claims of young earth creationists. Some are arguing from that perspective, so it's relevant. I guess the intelligent design crowd doesn't need a biblical flood.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Jan. 09 2005,11:45)]And I'm sure the stories those other cultures have (I'm betting it's more than just a few) about history continuing along just fine through the alleged time of the flood will be conveniently overlooked, as well as whether or not the timelines of all those flood stories even remotely coincide.
actully yes many cultures do have a flood story and it usally ends with the greater powers recreating everything or one or two survivors restarting the population of the world.

As for the women not having the same political rights as men first off yes there are some cultures where they do, there are quite a few indgineous(i cant spell that word) cultures in Africa who have women as a central part of their political system.

ps: as a side note please do not refer to cultures you do not understand as primitive, it is offensive and if you were to actully study most of there cultures that people call "primitive" you would find them to be much more culturally advanced than you believe.
 
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Being a Christian myself, I think recent creationists totally miss the point with the flood. Even in Roman times, the whole world to them meant the empire and lands beyond, but nothing on the kind of scale the world is known today.

The obvious (to me) explanation for the world wise flood was the end of the last ice age when sea levels rose by 300m. Think about it. There are flooded cities off the coast of India, there are villages and towns below the present Black Sea. People would have been living near or on coasts and arable farming would have been on the coastal plains, not at altitude. Catastrophic floods all over the Indian sub continent and also what is present day Iraq and Iran (where the flood narritive came from) left a 1 metre deep layer of sediment. Evidence for this can be seen at Ur.

check out this

http://www.saintaidans.org/sci_theo/past_talks/NoahsFlood.htm
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mike King @ Jan. 09 2005,1:39)]Being a Christian myself, I think recent creationists totally miss the point with the flood. Even in Roman times, the whole world to them meant the empire and lands beyond, but nothing on the kind of scale the world is known today.
So the flood didn't flood the whole world? Why the ark? Why didn't god tell them to go somewhere else while it was flooded? Why did every single animal need to be saved?
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mike King @ Jan. 09 2005,1:39)]The obvious (to me) explanation for the world wise flood was the end of the last ice age when sea levels rose by 300m. Think about it. There are flooded cities off the coast of India, there are villages and towns below the present Black Sea. People would have been living near or on coasts and arable farming would have been on the coastal plains, not at altitude. Catastrophic floods all over the Indian sub continent and also what is present day Iraq and Iran (where the flood narritive came from) left a 1 metre deep layer of sediment. Evidence for this can be seen at Ur.
Your interpretation. Thats the thing with the bible, everyone has a different one.
 
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Very true AE, but that is where the flood story originated. But the last Ice age finished about 12,000 years ago and the story has a definated source from Babylonian culture. But for me, this makes the most sense.

BTW, the last ice age DID flood the whole world in a sense, sea levels rose all over the globe.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 09 2005,1:16)]ps: as a side note please do not refer to cultures you do not understand as primitive, it is offensive and if you were to actully study most of there cultures that people call "primitive" you would find them to be much more culturally advanced than you believe.
Hmm... don't want to risk offending people who've been dead for thousands of years.

How about archaic... more PC?
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Jan. 09 2005,5:45)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It's not just Christians who beleive in the Flood. Almost every single culture in the world has stories of a great flood that covered the earth. Coincidence?

These people didn't have satellite photos, mass media, global communication... they didn't even know the earth was round, or how massive it actually was. They lived in an entirely different intellectual environment and people today are constantly forgetting that fact. The amount of knowledge about the world we're using so casually to form our conclusions here would be beyond inconceivable to them. Every major disaster to a primitive isolated culture is a "global" one.
The bible does state that the world is round and is suspended in nothing. Now...how did they know that?
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Nflytrap @ Jan. 09 2005,6:34)]The bible does state that the world is round and is suspended in nothing. Now...how did they know that?
People like Aristotle figured that out just by observing the lunar eclipse. Unfortunately not everyone bought it.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Jan. 09 2005,5:45)]This thread is long enough without adding the Noah stuff to it too. It's a total waste of time talking science to people who can actually believe in a literal flood, because "God intervened" is universally applicable to any of their claims, rendering science irrelevant and useless (unless they think they can use it selectively to back up a claim). I say we make our way back to evolution/creationism, if there's even anything left to say at this point. I think just about everyone here already knows which information they're giving credence to and which they're ignoring.
Couldn't of said it better myself... added to the fact that the argument is already allowing the creationists to support their argument with the bible, with in itself isn't scientific.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Jan. 09 2005,11:41)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 09 2005,1:16)]ps: as a side note please do not refer to cultures you do not understand as primitive, it is offensive and if you were to actully study most of there cultures that people call "primitive" you would find them to be much more culturally advanced than you believe.
Hmm... don't want to risk offending people who've been dead for thousands of years.

How about archaic... more PC?
hey, not every culture talked about is necessarily not around any more, Maya, still Mayan people around some of whom still practice the religion. many other cultures whos story of the flood are still around or else how did we get them? and archaic isnt really any better because you are still assigning them a label which puts them on a hiearchy, why not call them other cultures, non-western culture, or even go so far as to learn the name of the culture and use that.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]BTW, the last ice age DID flood the whole world in a sense, sea levels rose all over the globe.
but not like the bible says it (Ie. the waters rising to the highest peaks)
so at least for me that's even less credibility for the bible. If the magnificent flood story about a flood that covered the whole entire earth and these people had to build a giant enormous ark and put two of every *land* animals there for forty days and forty nights can be explained as easily as that... well then what about the other parts of the bible?
(LOL... I bet you didn't mean what you said to be interpreted like this now did ya?)
 

Finch

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]actully yes many cultures do have a flood story and it usally ends with the greater powers recreating everything or one or two survivors restarting the population of the world.

no... they dont. thats a gross gereralization
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Jan. 10 2005,2:13)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]actully yes many cultures do have a flood story and it usally ends with the greater powers recreating everything or one or two survivors restarting the population of the world.

no... they dont. thats a gross gereralization
Finch, hes right.
The Aztecs had a theory that the world is destroyed and recreated every few hundered years(the next one is due to happen at about 2048)
Indian religions preach in around 7 or so gods.
One of them, Shiva, keeps the earth spinning, eventually destroying it before putting it back together.


O.K creationists and belivers in Noahs ark, explain this:

If only land animals came abord, then why are there insects in the world? No insects came aboard, just land animals.
And what about the plants?
I dont recall hearing a story about plants going aboard.
No plants=no oxygen. no oxygen=no life

And why are there black and Asian(no offence intended whatsoever) in the world if Noah and his family were white and looked like ordinary English and American people?
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And what about the plants?
I dont recall hearing a story about plants going aboard.
No plants=no oxygen. no oxygen=no life

Well, a fair bit of the world's oxygen also comes from microscopic plant life in the oceans, and likely would've sustained the planet for a fair bit with just Noah and his crew. Of course, a flood that huge would've destroyed every land plant, thusly leaving the animals SOL when returning to their home and leaving the world a barren wasteland.
 
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Plants and insects both happen to have their own methods of survival. Plants have the amazing ability to produce seed, which in all cases I can think of can survive at least 44 days. Insects lay eggs, which normally hatch after anything from days to weeks, and can lay dormant for long periods of time if kept cold (ie. in cold water). Other insects could survive as nymphs underground. I personally am not sure quite how they all survived, but it would make an interesting study!

As for separate races, this site I found explains it much better than I can:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-skincolor.html

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If the magnificent flood story about a flood that covered the whole entire earth and these people had to build a giant enormous ark and put two of every *land* animals there for forty days and forty nights can be explained as easily as that... well then what about the other parts of the bible?

Go ahead and read it. Most of it its pretty self-explanatory.

Peter

PS: Can you show me where the Bible states that the earth is round?
 
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