What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Edwardsiana

  • #41
how much are they?
confused.gif
?
confused.gif
?
confused.gif
now i mean the one inch seedlings
 
  • #42
Amazing colouration on that N. edwardsiana. Very nice. Very nice, indeed. Having said this, I would take a "hairy" hamata over an edwardsiana any day.
 
  • #43
Lots of clutching at straws. It is 99% certain the material is illegally collected. You'd need flowering size edwardsiana of both sexes to have produced seed in cultivation, and I've never heard of anyone with a flowering-sized edwardsiana. However, it doesn't seem to bother plenty of collectors, I have heard of people taking cuttings of rajah, lowii and Trusmadiensis without qualm. A friend of mine was on Kinabalu a few months ago and said that, even though the rajah area is heavily protected and you must climb it with guides, there was barely a seed-head left on any of the scapes. Everyone thinks that just taking a bit is OK, but everyone does it so the effect is cumulative. Even though it's not illegal, look at what poaching has done to clipeata. I'm just pointing out a fact. The whole reason poaching is such a threat is that collectors are collectors, they HAVE to have the species they don't have. It wouldn't be such an issue if Nepenthes didn't overwhelmingly come from poor, corrupt countries with little conservation infrastructure. I think blanket bans and the whole CITES system is counter-productive, but the law is the law, even if it as an rear...But if you buy these plants, rather than trying to find ridiculous scenarios to try to impute legality, at least have the gumption and decency to admit that you don't care whether they are illegally collected or not, you'll buy them regardless because you want them...
 
  • #44
One thing I did not know was that taking seed pods is NOT ilegal? I always assumed a permit was needed. Granted someone could mail themselves the seed from a distant port a lot easier than smuggling a piece of vine in their jeans through the airport. But I was always under the impression taking ANY part of a protected plant was a crime without clearance...?
 
  • #45
Maybe we could work something out so that growers of rare species could provide documentation of their plants? That way, if someone offered edwardsiana and you thought they might be poached, you could say, "Can I see the documents for it?"

Either papers issued by the country of origin if legally collected from the wild, or papers from the nursery from which it came would work.

-D. Lybrand
 
  • #46
I also found out where they're selling these babies, too bad I live in the UK! I so would pay for a plant and the necessary documents to get it over here. As for the legality of the plants, I'll stay quiet because I honestly don't know and won't dare make any assumptions.

Cheers
Amori
 
  • #47
Wowwie wowwie wow! Having found out and considered the source I would not put this past the person having collected seed long ago and flowerd them... If taking a select pod or two is legal and how all the neps are getting into TC and cultivation anwyay; jacquelineae, platychilla, and new untold of stuff (hinted about last june by hamish when In did a site search on this topic). I honestly don't see what all the screaming is about now...
I hope he saves me at least one!
smile.gif
 
  • #48
To those of you who have reserved seedlings: I dropped our mystery source an e-mail to ask about availability and how they are currently grown and stuff. I have not yet gotten a reply, but was wondering if anyone here knows how the plants will be shipped and what their current conditions are? Thanks.

-D. Lybrand
 
  • #49
One thing skipped on this thread, is that some of us have no idea that they are buying something that may have come from poached material. Yes, yes, ignorance is no escuse to some, but a year-and-a-half ago, if I saw one of these on a price list(and had good conditions to grow it), I would have bough it w/o thinking about it.
I remember within the last year. somebody with the user name "Root" posted a pic of his N. edwardsiana, and got blasted so hard, that not only were posts edited (the pics were removed before I even saw them), but this person has not posted since, that I am aware of.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #50
his profile is gone...hes no longer with us.....BUT HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!
 
  • #51
No, the 'not illegal' reference is to clipeata only. Clipeata is not protected, which is a great shame, but it wouldn't make much difference anyway. All Neps in Kinabalu National Park are, you need a permit to collect seed there. Edwardsiana is in a special category because not only are you not allowed to collect seed without a permit, you can't even enter the part of the park it grows in without a permit.

As for well-known people being reliable sources, I know of one well-known Nepenthes nurseryman who dug up protected Nepenthes species in the wild, so there's plenty of dodgy stuff in cultivation, and hybrids made from illegally collected plants. It's not just Neps, the damage that orchid collectors have done over the years is legendary. Where ever there are collectors, there will be illegal trade.

As for jacquelineae etc, as far as I know, they don't grow in National Parks, so collection only requires a general seed-collection permit. In Indonesia, the collection of Nepenthes seed anywhere is illegal without a permit. Malaysia, The Philippines, Thailand and PNG don't have prohibitions that I'm aware of, other than in National Parks.
 
  • #52
I think the real reason people scream about Sarracenia poaching in the States is because number one, our laws are ridiculous over here, it seems anyone with money can twist any law mkaing body, and plus we have a republican in office...and a war nut. So that doesn't help us out at all. Nepenthes poaching doesn't seem to bother the masses because 1, we don't live where Nepenthes are on the roadsides 2 we are ignorant and 3 we don't have a clue, no pictures, fact reports or anything of the land cleared/developed that is being said is being developed. I think most Nepenthes growers, esp. in the US have a hard time believing a little country like Borneo/Sumatra can actually develop land, since most people find it hard to believe other people can actually clear a forest.
 
  • #53
Wow that is for certain, Nep G. Not a single sarr got poached in '99 but when we got that republican in office in '00 open the floodgates, cause there will be no more natural growing sarracenia. If you wish to say are laws are to easy on poachers then say so and I will agree, but don't act as if they are any different then in '99 nor will then be any different if a democrat gets elected in '08. We let those that have the money decide what land gets cleared, makes no difference who is in office.
 
  • #54
Anybody know if the source of the edwardsiana is out of town or something? I can't get in touch with this person.

-D. Lybrand
 
  • #55
I got a reply from him today and asked him point blank about the plants told him to call me if he felt like it. I'll post any info he sends back. Enough beating around the bush...
 
  • #56
Folks, here is the reply from the N. edwardsiana guy:

"Hi Josh,

Thank you for bringing potential rumors to my attention.

While I have no way of generating/obtaining any kind of certificate (for each seedling), I can say that these plants were grown from seed which was donated to me for research and propagation purposes. No plants were poached and I've never received nor would I accept a poached plant. After appearing in National Geographic, years ago, I started getting seed donations from all over. Most of the seed was dead, but some was viable. After repeated success and publishing an article on the subject, I guess others felt I was a good bet to get plants established from seed. Anyway, I've been growing this species for a number of years.Trying to spread seedlings around takes years. The seedlings are very slow. The ones I'm shipping this season are over three years old.

I can see no problem with owning these plants. If I had anything to hide, I wouldn't be publishing articles about them, now would I? To be legally correct, N.edwardsiana is under Appendix 2 of CITES, with seed being legal to ship without a CITES permit (as I understand). The only Appendix 1 Nepenthes, with even seed restricted are N.khasiana and N.rajah (as of 2/2006). As final proof, I copied the letter which contained the original seed (several Appendix 2 species) and was sent to me from the U.S Government Animal and Health Inspection Service in Florida. Since the seed was sent to me without my asking and was a potential headache for me, I sent the entire envelope to APHIS, along with a copy of my import permit. They inspected it and sent it back to me. I'm sure I even have the original envelope, along with copies."
 
  • #57
I had a feeling that would be the response. Thanks for having the balls to ask, swords.
I remember the article and did not think they would publish it if that species had been obtained illegally.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #58
I think what Robert is saying is that he had no active part in the seed collection, it was sent to him and he received it in good faith. I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is that the third party who sent him the seed most likely didn't have a permit to collect it. So no negative inference on Robert, he did the right things when he received the seed in clearing for import, so he didn't cause issues from US Customs. I also have no negative view on his distribution of the seedlings, as his work in growing Nepenthes from seed is well known and respected. All I wanted to do is make people aware of the less-than-clear-cut aspects of growing Nepenthes. Fortunately or unfortunately, it is illegal to collect much material in the countries of origin and plenty of material in cultivation has less than legitimate origins. We have responsibilities as growers to not only not participate in poaching or illegal collection, but not facilitate it by turning a blind eye or seeing that the ends justifies the means.
 
  • #59
Sydneyneps, just out of curiosity, do you think Robert did the right thing given the circumstances? or do you think he should have just destroyed the seed given that he realized it probably wasnt legally collected?

its an interesting argument for either way. personally, given how the seeds came to be in his posetion i would have tried to grow them. him selling the seedlings bugs me a little though im not sure at all what he is charging(if someone would PM me what they are paying to satisfy my own curiosity i would appreciate it, im not set up to grow this species and dont actually know how to get ahold of this individual anyways even if i did, just curious on a ball park figure) personally given the circumstances i would be more inclined to give seedlings to individuals in the hobby who i know and trust that they have the conditions to get these guys started. but thats just me and my 2 cents on the subject
 
  • #60
No, I think he did the right thing without a doubt, destroying the seed is counterproductive and diminishes a resources which can't afford to be diminished. I have been in the same situation myself. Like Robert, I'm well know for growing Neps from seed, particularly rare highland species. Luckily for me I have two botanist friends who works with Indonesian conservation agencies who have permits to collect Nepenthes seed, so I get legal seed. However, from time to time I get unsolicited seed from someone who got it from someone else ... and I can almost guarantee that the seed wasn't legally collected. I do plant out the seed. The rule I have with that seed is that I give as many of the seedlings to botanical gardens as they can take, keep 5 - 10 for myself, and give the rest away. I will not ask money for the plants, other than the cost of postage. That way I feel I am not profiting from it or financially encouraging it.
 
Back
Top