Macfarlanei or an hybrid?

[emilias_garden]

<span style='color:teal'>Hello!

Here i am once again with a potential problem of misslabbelling. I have a N. macfarlanei (i bought it labbeled like that several months ago). My plant is producing pitchers and is doing really good. But now that i have pitchers on the plant i am worried that what i bought as macfarlanei can be an hybrid (macfarlanei x sanguinea).

I have been looking pictures in the Internet and in the books i have, and my pitchers do not seem, for me, to be pure macfarlanei (I hope i am worng). They seem more mac x sanginea than the real species.

Here are some pics. I hope that you guys can help me to confirm that i do have the real spicies or in theo ther hand, if once again i was sold and hybrid insted the species.

Here you see the pitcher:

Here is the peristome and upper part of the pitcher:

And here is the whole plant:

Is there the possibility that this pitcher is trully macfarlanei, but is a pitcher of an immature plant? Any help?</span>

 

[glider14]

could be that or a type of N. fusca?
good luck
alex

 

[srduggins]

I really feel for you. From my experience it is difficult to get pure bred macfarlanei, ramispina and who really knows what constitutes "pure" in regards to these species and sanguinea. Seems likely that somewhere in their past some interbreeding went on with the way these three grow and flower together. I bought a macf and ramis only to find them to be hybrids. Got two more ramis that really look like ramis, but recently noticed some spotting behind the black exterior, so now I wonder about that one, too. Recently had another macf open a small pitcher and it looks like a hybrid too, but maybe, (hopefully), it is just too juvenile at this point. Yours looks a lot like mine. How small is it? I've heard macf is hard to grow, so if its easy, it may be a hybrid. Here is my more obviously hybrid macf, (probably with sanguinea - just like you suspect of yours). Don't know if this helps, but I'm no expert anyway.

My guess is hybrid with sanguinea.

 

[The Griffin]

They certainly do look the same, don't they?

Cheers,

Joe

 

[SydneyNeps]

As srduggins noted, Peninsular Malaysian species (in particular ramispina, macfarlanei and sanguinea) hybridise extremely readily in the wild. Accordingly, plants grown from seed collected in the wild will show a high degree of hybrid parentage. In some cases, BE has found up to 70% of some will seed to turn out to be hybrid. So that's always the risk when you buy a small Nep grown from wild seed (and that goes for any species, not just the ones mentioned). The other factor which exacerbates this is that hybrid seed seems to be appear more in nursery and TC material, probably because it is given artificial help, whereas in nature it may not survive.

 

[fc3srx713b]

looks like copelandii

 

[SydneyNeps]

Not copelandii, that species has petiolate leaves for a start.

 

[FedeAbra]

Maybe it is macfarlanei x ramispina: I have got it in my collection, but bought it as pure macfarlanei....

 

[fc3srx713b]

or macf x sangui?

 

[emilias_garden]

<span style='color:teal'>Well i think i am convinced now that i have an hybrid.

Srduggins, my pitcher si very similar, not to say identical to yours, like Joe sais. I can say that if we do not have the true species, at least this plant looks really pretty, even more when larger, like yours.

I agree with you, this must be an hybrid with sanguinea, because of the coloration of pitcher and the form of the peristome.

FedeAbra, i do not think that this can have ramispina, because the hybrid of mac x ramispina has very dark pitchers, like ramispina parent, though, it can be a possibility. I will ned to make more research.

SydneyNeps, thanks for the info... this is a good explanation of why i have been into this same issue so constantly, i mean plntas that i purchase as spiecies that end up to be hybrids.

Alex and Santos, i am sure this is not fusca, nor copelandii. I wish it could be, at least i wouldn't  have a macfarlanei, but it would be other true specie. But insted i have an hybrid, AGAIN.

I am not a purist, i am not only looking for spieces, but in order to have my catalogue updated and correct, i would like to have exactly what i buy... Well i guess we all would like that.

Does somebody else have more pics of macfarlanei true species or hybrids of mac and sanguinea and/or ramispina?</span>

 

[agustinfranco]

Hi all:

The most interesting aspect of the macfarlanei, ramispina, and sanguinea hybrids is that regardless of the constant crossing amongst the three, pure species are still produced or perhaps these are just three variants of a single master species?

Gus

 

[emilias_garden]

<span style='color:teal'>Hey Gus! Really interresting theory... It would be nice to make some research about this...</span>

 

[Tony Paroubek]

moving other thread over here:

GAH I need glasses!  
oh hehe nevermind

Can you see any fuzz on the underside of the lid?  Lookie like hybrid to me.

Here is the MT N. macfarlanei of a young plant.  If you look close you will see some of the fuzz on the underside of the lid.  The shape on  your pitcher looks more like N. sanguinea and the tendril length is VERY short.

Tony

part 2
Not sure about any of the hybrids with the fuzzy coming through. Those I have looked at don't show any, just the pure species. I had thought I remember that the hairs are not always present 100% of the time in the species though, but that if they are there then that would be a good way to tell it was N. macfarlanei.

I have a variety of N. macfarlanei hybrids.. with N. ventricosa, N. (tobaica x thorelii) and a whole mess of who knows what from wild seed of N. macfarlanei. Of which only a few plants look like the species with fuzzy hair and all. Maybe I can take some pics. Looking at the hybrids the REALLY LONG N. macfarlanei tendril seems to vanish as well once crossed to something else.

Some other pics.. these are from 6-8" size plants roughly
N. macfarlanei x ventricosa

N. macfarlanei x (tobaica x thorelii)

edit: oh yeah, wanted to add that seems like N. macfarlanei seems to get overwhelmed and 'lost' in the mix. Which I guess should theoretically make picking out pure N. macfarlanei easier.

 

[Tony Paroubek]

new stuff!

I looked at a number of plants.  I did not see any fuzz on the lid underside on anything other than the pure species.  Now to the pics!

Picture 1 the ONLY one out of 20 plants that appears to be pure from wild N. macfarlanei seed.  Mature lower pitcher.  Sorry lousy picture but posted this to show the very long tendril characteristic for N. macfarlanei.  The tip of the leaf is just barely showing on the right side.

I kinda popped the lid on this pitcher.. you can see the hairs very dense short and white.. why I call it fuzz ;>

MT clone mature lower pitcher.  Note again particularly the usual cream background and tubby shape of N. macfarlanei

Side view of the MT clone showing the fuzz hair

View of the spur which is unbranched and fairly short.  MT plant (sorry labelled picture as be clone)

Now some hybrids from the wild N. macfarlanei seed..
Your guess is as good as mine...possible N. ramispina as a grandparent somewhere.

Another similar one... looks a bit N. ramispina shape but not very dark so who knows, perhaps N. ramispina as a grandparent.

Much more N. ramispina coloring

One with lot of N. sanguinea and perhaps N. ramispina for color somewhere or just a hybrid with a dark N. sanguinea..

soooo there ya have it

 

[The Griffin]

Great suff, Tony!
Do you suppose some of the color variants of N. sanguinea originate from hybrids crossed with sanguinea?

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Not sure on that one Joe.  N. ramispina seems to be quite dominant for shape even long after the purple color is not coming through if the first two wild hybrids are an indication.  So it may in fact be that the dark purple N. sanguinea are just dark colored variants from within the species and not borrowing the color from a species such as N. ramispina, as some have suggested.  So perhaps the 4th hybrid is just with a dark colored N. sanguinea.  The pitcher is easily twice the size of the others and I would think that N. ramispina would bring down the size of the plant and pitcher considerably.

Tony

 

[ludwig777]

very interesting......I have a macfarlanei starting to pitcher...it will be interesting to see what it looks like....I do have pretty long tendrils on mine; is this a sure sign of pure species?

 

[srduggins]

Excellent stuff Tony. This should be made more permanent as I'm sure this won't be the last time someone asks this question. Maybe adding it to your website or writing a book!

 

[schloaty]

I have bought two macfarleneis in my time (still have 'em both). My first looks a lot like Tony's pic of the one with lots of ramspina coloring (but mine even darker), so I think it a hybrid of the two.

My second last the coloring of the pure species, but I think it's more elongated like the pic of one where he's not sure of the other parent.

My kingdom for a pure mac!

 

[emilias_garden]

<span style='color:teal'>Hello guys!

Tony, thank you very, very much for this work of research that you have done. It has been really helpful. Thank you!

Well, a several days after the pics i took of my plant, i have seen clearly that my supossed "mac" must be a mac x sanguinea.

Indeed it is a a "colorful sanguinea" like Clarke sais. The way that it has its lid diagonally, like sanguinea and the shape of the pitcher, purely sanguinea. Also the detail that the tendrils are very short, not even close to those of the true macfarlanei that Tony has posted. Besides, there is not white hairs under the lid and the peristome is more flat... like sanguinea ones, not like the mac's.

Here are a couple of pics to compare my supossed "mac" with one of my sanguinea:

For me they are exactly the same, only the change in coloration. Though, now i wonder from where this hybrid gets the red peristome. Hmmm...

Once again, thank you Tony!</span>