Want to grow Highland/UltraHi Nepenthes ?

[Av8tor1]

Paul,

With the T5 platform you may run into some issues. The bulb efficiency is directly proportional to bulb temp. The optimum cold spot temperature of the bulb should be approx 45c. This is measured approx just past the metal ring (the point where mercury condensates in the discharge tube at the stamped end of the lamp). The temperature at the center of the bulbs in my fixtures runs approx 165f with a cold spot of 35-40c (using infrared thermometer)

Take this temp rise and multiply it times the 6 48" long bulbs and you begin to see the scope of the problem, you cant cool the bulbs yet you must isolate the plants from their heat

Now most T5 ballast may be remotely mounted up to 20' away... but compared to the temp rise of the bulbs this is a minor point.

What you might consider and what I have tried to mimic is a wind curtain, it is a technology that I have experience with from industry. It is simple and if properly designed very effective.

Here is a good primer on the subject

HTH's
Av

 

[GrowinOld]

Next!

Hi Av8!

I know the bulbs are hotties! Another idea I had (I mentioned having a few...) shown below, involves using a piece of tempered glass to seal off the whole fixture, bulbs and all. The drawback is lighting "thru" another pane of glass, which some people object to.

I don't have a problem with this myself, as we have to make consolations somewhere, and try to do it where it hurts the least, however some people (and their plants) have stricter lighting requirements. Some of mine do, but overall for my Neps I haven't had problems with not enough light, even when I have an extra pane of glass between the lights and the plants.
I would like to hear opinions about about which plants people have found need more/less light. Most of my Neps grow great with much less light than my sundew, VFT's and Sarr's.
But then, that's my experience thus far.

As far as the wind curtain goes, while I don't have much exposure in working with or knowing that technology well enough (I do like a similar technology used for drying hands called "wind blade", which was the best hand dryer I ever used! It's amazing and fast!), however from what I gather, I don't know if the wind curtain application would be a bit beyond what the average home handyman is capable of building, and with the size/application we are looking at here, without further study I am uncertain how the wind curtain would affect the humidity/air in the chamber. (Unless I am mistaking the method of operation you are looking at.) It appears to be nice technology, but I don't know enough about it to really say one way or another. (I would like to know more about what you are thinking of as in how to apply it for a typical wire-shelf grow chamber in the average grower's basement.)

It is nice to hear ideas and thoughts that are quite different than my own, as that is the way to trigger and create even better new ideas. So I do appreciate your input. (Again, I don't know enough about Wind Curtain technology and how it would ultimately affect the chamber's air temp./humidity. The "force field" look of course is quite appealing!)

Like I said earlier, I do have quite a few ideas on this light-heat situation, and simply wanted to throw one out there to share with the hope of helping someone solve their heat situation. I am glad to hear others are thinking about it, especially when their ideas and knowledge are "outside my box of thinking"! It certainly helps me broaden my view.


Thanks again Av, and let me know what you think of this "adjustment".

I know every idea will have flaws in it. It's going to be a matter of which idea solves the problem the best, without also creating more, larger problems in the process. (Kind of like medication and all it accompanying "bad side effects"!

Good Growing!
Paul

 

[JMurphy97]

Well for me the main thing would be cooling. Night temps would have to be cold enough for the most picky of the ultrahighland neps. Day temps would have to mild 70's, yet have enough light. Maybe have it 4 feet long and have a built in stand to sit on.

 

[Av8tor1]

Paul,

As you guessed it does require constant humidification, at least in my system it does. So yep... they have their own issues.

Wind curtains are/were commonly seen in grocery store display cases. (the open, frozen food models that use to be so common years ago)

I have often pondered a glass pane solution, But would the glass pane eventually become nearly as hot as the bulbs unless it had enough external surface area to dissipate the heat? Personally, I run an 18 hr on, 6 hr off photoperiod during the summer.

Maybe have the glass mounted to a heat sink of some sort or constant convection cooling simular a typical double pane oven door. (which in a sense, I guess is a form of wind curtain)

I don't know, and I don't have a good answer.....

It seems that LED's are probably the best long term solution. I have been experimenting with them for the last 6 months. The have surpassed my expectations in many ways, but also shown their limitations.

Currently, the price vs. footprint issue is a problem. A 300$ light will only suffice for a 2sq. ft. area. Plant growth was good to very good, but not very aesthetically pleasing if used alone.

A hybrid of fluorescents and LED's as Dave S. mentioned, or the LED light engines NASA are using on the ISS ALS (International space station advanced life support project) may very well be the best solution.

http://gravitationalandspacebiology.org/index.php/journal/article/viewFile/2/2

But then if it was easy, everyone would have one

anxious to follow your progress

Av

Edit:

Paul,
Heliamphora will be the gold standard for light intensity... I had to move all my neps to a lower rack, they could not handle the output of the 6xT5 fixure while on the top shelf. For a non heli setup it should be no issue to single or double pane a T5 for isolation purposes. My application would be the exception, not the norm.

 

[GrowinOld]

Further Grow-Shelf ideas

Hello Again, all you who want to grow the "Highlanders"!

To start however... Av8 and anyone else following this thread interested in the grow shelf ideas...

Yes the glass would heat up. Adding an additional glass pane with air space between them (re: your oven door reference) is one way of dealing with it, however it further diminishes your light transmission and increases distance to the plants even more.

If you have some distance between the bulbs and the first glass pane, (and be sure to clean the glass thoroughly...no fingerprints!), along with a decent CFM fan that blows/draws primarily directed across the space between the bulbs and glass, then it should keep the glass relatively cool and further solve the heating problem.

Anything is an improvement. Right now people have their lamps sitting right in the chamber, with the bulbs and ballasts heating up the inside like a little oven. Figure how many lamps are inside your chamber, and you're really cooking!

Isolating the lamps and the hot air around them with ductwork and a glass pane, and drawing the heat off with as large a fan as you can get, should reduce the heat produced quite dramatically. Even a small percentage is a definite improvement, when you add up all the lights involved in some people's setups. LED technology for plants is still relatively in its growth stage (no pun intended), so it is going to be over-priced for now. It does look promising tho!

There is so much we can easily do to work with fluorescents, that for most people it is the "best bang for the buck" right now. That's why I offered some ideas on how people could solve the problems they are encountering. $25 worth of ductwork, caulk and a few small fans can possibly solve their problems adequately.

I didn't mean to get too far off the subject or spend too much time refining my designs on the shelf systems. Especially since I am not working on one right now. But I don't mind sharing some of my ideas for helping people with these shelf systems, especially since the heat problems with lighting seems to be common.

NOW... Back on the subject of my current Highland Chamber, I would like to start by referring to your last comment as it sums up how I feel....
"But then if it was easy, everyone would have one"
And I think it would be nice if growing all kinds of CP's was easy (even "Highland Nep's, for a novice), so everyone CAN have (grow) one! And that is my goal in designing these.

Back when I got into CP's, we didn't have much available to us. Common VFT's, maybe if you searched you could find common pitcher plants (Purpurea & Flava), butterwort and a sundew or two. No way to find a Nepenthes nor much else! And few ways to find anyone else interested in such strange plants!

Now-a-days we not only have access to new varieties of VFT's, Sarr's and Sundew, as well as innumerable varieties of Nepenthes and Heliamphora, we can actually buy a N.Villosa! Things may be costly, but at least you have the opportunity to buy them. Do you know what a miracle that is! IN my day the only way you were going to even see a Highland Nep. like N.Villosa was in National Geographic Magazine! (Vol.125/#5, May'64).

Now for as great as it is to have the ability to buy such "rare" Nepenthes and other plants,
I think it would be equally as great to give nearly anyone the ability to "easily" grow and care for those plants! That is a big part of my goal in this venture! (A part of the rest is staying alive and being able to eat!)

Anyway, I have taken a quick picture of my rough Prototype I made. I just wanted to give people an idea of what I am able to do "cosmetically". Keep in mind it is a "rough" and don't know if it is nice enough now to put in your living room. It isn't finished yet, and is missing much of the wood trim still.

I don't know what you all think of its looks, but my wife loves it. She thinks its nice to see tropical plants growing in their little chamber, and likes the wood trim as it is nice enough to display. I haven't finished on the cabinet yet, and yes it does set on a cabinet below that holds much of the "functioning" parts.I have blocked it out as it is really "rough" right now. I basically finished it up enough to get it functioning so I could get some plants into it and start testing it on "live" subjects.

I will be changing things as far as its appearance goes, and still don't know if I will be going with wood or aluminum/metal. Still lots of research left to do. But no matter what I do, as JMurphy and others have mentioned, it's gotta' function to be worth anything.

Well, if my N. Macrophylla is any indication, (See my other earlier "thread", Nepenthes help Needed! :
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115010
it seems the Terrarium is doing its job well! I've grown a few varieties of Nep's for around 20 years now. They have been hardier and easier for me to grow than VFT's, and yet the "highlanders" with more exacting needs has proven to be a learning experience that books could not provide. It seems there's always something new to encounter (Like gardening), and it's never too late to learn new things!

Take care and good growing to you all.
And thank you again for bothering to contribute. (I will probably be out of touch for a while, but should have some more pics and updates when I return.)

Paul

 

[rattler]

that looks pretty good........think the wife would allow something that looks like that in the house.......if it works i would consider one.......

 

[happy-gnome]

Man, that looks a thousand times better than the setup I cobbled together which I'm using at the minute...I'd definitely look to get one if they were available.

 

[obregon562]

id take as is! awsome! keep us updated!

 

[schloaty]

Wow, just saw this thread.

I didn't read all the threads too carefully...But from what I did read, there have been a great many good ideas. I wanted to add my own to the mix.....hopefully they're also good ideas!

1) I would not was a sealed bottom....I'd want there to be direct drainage into a bottom chamber. Also, I would like a sub-floor type thing, a little like an egg-crate arrangement to compliment the drainage. This would allow me to place media and plant directly in the chamber if I so chose, instead of being limmited to pots.

2) For the heat thing, have you considered the compact flourescent bulbs (like the fluorex ones) rather than t-5's? They're rediculously bright (I use the 65 watt ones....and I recently saw that they come in 80 watt, too), and you can find 6500K and I beleive 4400k (I think I saw 5000K once....but not sure). Anyway, the fluourex brand ones are quite cheap....I daresay that a bulb/lamp combo for $40 (65 watt lamp/bulb combo at my local HD) is cheaper than a full t-5 unit. The only problem I run into with them is when the bulb goes out, often so does the ballast. Good part is they last a long time. So if you went this way, unless you could find a sturdier ballast than the flourex ones, you'd need to make the entire lighting housing easy to access for replacements. Also, they're considerably cooler than t-5's. I can rest my hand on the housing for a second or two. They're hot, but they don't burn.

3) Since this is supposed to be a display case, I'd want the back wall mirrored, I think. I would give the illusion of a double-sized collection, plus reflect light for more efficient light usuage.

3) For the font and sides, I'd like it to be designed to look like a real greenhouse, just miniature. Complete with all the victorian trimmings (or whatever other style you want to use). Perhaps even include a planting/potting area around the OUTSIDE of the perrimeter, so you could add non-chamber plants as a border (like many people do outside their real greenhouses). I suppose you could make this a "custom option," or some such thing.

I would even go so far as to say that you cold make access into the chamber look like real GH double door....or even better, make it LOOK like a double door, but it is really a sliding door (that way you don't knock anything over).

4) To address the easy of watering - I don't think you'd need top access for watering if you had an irrigation/misting system integrated into the chamber, so this should not be an issue. However, perhaps the top portion should be removeable for initial planting, or if owners want to do a real big re-arrangement.

5) For cooling, many people said that the cooling needs to be adjusted to the ambient room temperature. I wonder if you could design a thermostat/humidistat that could on a timer and looks like a frog, giant bettle, or something else that wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. It would solve the problem, I think.

6) I would want to be able to hook the irrigation/misting system directly into the house plumbing....You could even go so far as to include a RO system with the grow system...or make that an option.

7) I would want the option for total, partial or NO automation. For me, I would go with total because I'm lazy, but I would want the option for people who like to be more involved.

That's all I can think of for now that I don't think I saw addressed (or at least not in such a manner)....

 

[ilbasso]

I haven't made it through all of the responses yet, so I may be repeating. I am all for those that want easy, front access to the plants. I don't like moving the lights either.

I have a design in my head for a large living room worthy enclosure, but don't have the whole cooling thing down so it may end up as a lowland tank instead. It'd be on a wooden cabinet with supply storage underneath and access through the front pane. The lights would hopefully be T5 and would hang in a hood that has some fans for cooling and would be matching the cabinet under the tank.

The back of the tank would be a mirror-like surface and and track would run around the other three sides so that I can slide panels in that would be mirrors on the inside and wood on the outside. This way, when I'm not viewing the plants they'll have the increased light from the mirrors and the panels will keep the light from filling the room when not wanted.

I'd like to build a seedling shelf in somehow to avoid balancing pots on whatever I can to get them close to the lights and a way to hang one or two baskets would be needed. It'd look better than the balancing act I've got going on now.

 

[aaddaam]

iam sorry everybody for brining up an old post but i think i found a way to cool them. if you hook an ice maker onto a timer so it would pour ice into the terrarium every hour. you would have to mess with it for a while but you would eventually get it. and to get the water back into the ice maker you could use a water pump. i dont know if this would work but i might try it.
hope this helps
adam

 

[Entwadumela]

Hiya Paul-

I know this post is about a year old, but I was wondering if you had any updates on your prototype highland grow chamber?

As you know, I've started a topic on "Wine Cooler for Ultra-highlanders" and just wanted to know if you've built a better mouse trap.

Good Growing,
E

 

[GrowinOld]

Wow!

Has it been a year! Wow, thats pretty good.
I recently had a fan burn out (made a horrific noise actually).
Bit otherwise the unit has held up pretty good.

The unit is "almost" powerful enough, but not quite.
I have other ideas in mind how to solve the situation
but it has had to take the "back burner" for now.

I do have some great sphagnum moss growing and my Hamatas are
plugging along (I posted pics recently) as is the Villosa, however my Macrophylla's are not growing
as nicely as I would like. It works, but not good enough!
The unit can't handle when the room temp is warm, so I will need to
increase the cooling units ability to overcome this...if they can!
I have all the things I need to set it up, but just haven't had the time.
(My bad!) For now, even with the cooling device, I still often throw in
a container frozen with ice for safe measure.

The Peliter's are nice units, but given a choice I would go with standard
refrigeration units, even a small one. They are more controllable and can
overcome the heat generated by the lights better.

I do plan on following thru on improving this unit with the Peliters,
so at some point look for my post about it. (It may be a while.)
(I used to do electromechanical engineering, so trying things and inventing
is second nature.... however it is a process that takes time and experimenting.)

As far as just taking a wine cooler unit and putting a light in it,
and an ultrasonic fogger, the weak point is the ability to cool down overnight
enough. Everything else is doable, and pretty easy.
Even refrigerators are not designed to be heated up or even left open
(hence being told: "don't leave the door open"!)
and then expected to cool back down quickly.
Thanks for asking. I am still working on it... and I am getting close!

Paul

 

[Entwadumela]

Hiya Paul-

Thanks for the quick reply and update!

You mentioned that the weak point of a wine cooler is the "cool down overnight". Wouldn't just manually turning down the temperature on the unit 10 - 20 degrees nightly do the trick and then increasing it in the morining?

Good luck on your modifications and please keep us up to date.

Happy Growing an Holidays,
E

 

[GrowinOld]

Grow Long, and Prosper!

E,

The problem is that the peliter works off of ambient temps, and can only cool down so much from there. And it is usually slow at doing that! But then it's like trying to cool down a tiny room by blowing across a large ice-cube! Even when that "room" is the size of a small aquarium, it takes time to cool it down.

Not too hard if the "room" (inside of the wine cooler) is ambient temperature to begin with, but when you shine in some t5 lamps all day, there is a lot of built up residual heat to move. Every object in the wine cooler, such as the pots, the "soil" mixture, the plants, and any water, not to mention the "walls and floor" of it are now warmer than ambient room temps!
Even running the unit while the lamps are on, it is difficult for the cooler to keep up with.

Remember, these units are designed to get the inside cool (along with & the wine & bottles) and to stay cool. When one opens the door and leaves it open for a few minutes and then closes it again, the cooling unit can bring things back to desired temps, because the wine and bottles and walls of the unit are still pretty close to the desired temps, and so help re-cool things.
If you were to open the door and leave it open, the bottles and wine would begin to heat up (toward ambient room temps), and when you close the door, the bottles and wine now act like little heaters themselves! Even with the unit running the whole time, it now has to "suck out" all the heat that everything acquired! Cooling down an empty unit that starts at room temperature, goes a lot faster than if you start by heating the inside walls of the unit, and have objects inside that are warm. And that is what we are trying to do every night, when the lights turn off.
We basically spent all day warming up everything inside with nice bright lights, and now we have to remove all that heat. Now that IS a big job to do. And if we run our lights for 12-14 hours, we are trying to do that in less than 4-6 hours, hoping to give the plants a few hours to go dormant and "sleep"!
It's not that the units can't lower the temps, but besides heating things up, we are needing the unit to do it in only a few hours. That is a lot to ask!

I am looking at using a bigger peliter (cooling) unit or multiple units, to cool down better. Even then, the potential for cooling is dependent on the ambient temperatures. I have more testing and experimenting to do.

There is a great way to utilize even a small wine cooler however!

Simply have another setup! One normal terrarium with nice lights and misting/humidity.... and the wine cooler set up with a mister/humidifier inside. Take the plant itself and put it into the wine cooler at night, and move it into the terrarium during the day! (Let the wine cooler run all day and set the thermostat low.) Easier than moving ice packs, and the plant will like the environment even more!
Just be SURE to have the humidity very high in the wine cooler, for an ideal night time environment! (Not enough humidity will eventually kill the plant. Keep it higher at night... VERY high! higher than you think you should is a good place to start!) Air movement is already built in, because there is a nice fan inside that blows the cold air around. (Remember, I mentioned earlier that it operates like "blowing across an ice cube"!)
There are also drains on the units, so you will need to possibly remove the bottom drain pan and hook up a hose to drain into a bigger container, or possibly try to put a container or sheet of plastic inside to catch the water (it will need to be taped or glued to the sides, so the condensation will run down the sides and into the plastic reservoir. You will lose some along the door, but the drain will take care of that. (Again, you will need to choose a way to deal with that, as a lot may drain off.)

If you look on Craigslist, you can find used ones from time to time (depending on where you live).
Well, I hope some of this information was enlightening... and encourages you to try something!
Grow long, and prosper!
Paul

 

[Entwadumela]

Ha, ha, ha

My wife loves me (at least I think so ), Paul, but I don't think she loves me that much to let me have two terrariums just for one plant.

Oh, to be single again.

This article was posted here on TF about a year ago, but I thought I'd bring it back up.
Nice set up, but I'd like a frontal view of my plant with lights, and not an overhead view that needs the lights to be moved to look at it.

http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/articles/CPNv32n1p20_23.pdf

E

 

[seedjar]

I think I'd most be interested in a modular product. I'd be much more tempted to buy a rig from you if I knew I could easily take the chiller/humidifier/fans/brains and move them onto a larger enclosure, add extra lights, etc. But I'm a do-it-yourselfer at heart so I might not really be your target consumer.
~Joe

 

[rattler]

actually kinda glad this post was dug up from the past......just dawned on me ive got a freezer i can use now :grin: our upright freezer's seal went out so we cant keep food in it and given a new seal costs bout 2/3's of what a new chest freezer would cost i believe we will be upgrading to a new freezer........cant seal the old one good enough to keep food in but i wonder if i cant use it for a plant project? gonna have to have my brother get it down into the basement for me :grin:

 

[seedjar]

Rattler, I always thought it would be relatively straightforward to build a wedge-shaped insert to attach to a fridge or freezer of some sort. Mount fans and input/output ducts on the outer edge of a wedge cut to the size of your door, so that you still make use of the insulation of the fridge door. (Also this way you don't necessarily need to remove the door.) You could probably hold it shut pretty tight using glued-on hook fasteners. I wish I had a spare fridge to experiment with...
~Joe

 

[rattler]

actually was planning on building a 4 foot long chamber and cool it at night via a pump, antifreeze and copper tubing in a heat sink like water in the bottom or the like......sorta like the frozen water bottles but in automatic form, just run it at night with a humidifier........can close up the freezer and seal it good enough that i can get into it to fix something but i wont have to open it to often like i would when storing food in it......