Jimmy, Robert Cantley has a thing called a license. and he would need various licenses and documentation to export to the US. and would it make it right if i randomly went out to Sarawak somewhere and collected hundreds of neps saying im going to multiply them and bring them back? NO because when you do that, you get rid of alot of genetic diversity. its screwed up to even disturb their natural habitat
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Some N. Thorelii in my home
- Thread starter PhoenixVOZ
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No, SK, that would not be right at all. You yourself would need documentation to do that - which the big guys have, and can do that. I'm not attacking Rob Cantley by any means; I love BE! Plus, different laws apply (or don't apply) for different places. It's called economics and (more importantly) politics. Most governments of developing countries have "more important" things to care about than genetic diversity of plants that happen to exist in areas that look good for developing...So while it may be "screwed up" that it happens, it happens anyway. As long as people can get the proper paperwork to do something legally, there's no use complaining about it.
Glad we agree on that.
I'm just saying that it can't really be helped unless you have the power to change a development-minded government's views.
It wasn't bad to do that back then when no laws were in effect; The law ultimately says what is right and wrong, and when a law is seen as wrong enough in itself to be changed, it is changed, and "not bad" (but perhaps not necessarily good either) may suddenly be turned to "bad." That's all there is to it!
It's important to look at politics as it relates to science/nature, because political control of science/nature has led to many, many notable achievements and tragedies. Science rarely finds its own way. Ethical views of different times are slow at work, while politics get immediate priority.
...And, are you saying it's wrong for people to dig things up in their own backyard? Because, VFTs and Neps actually exist on peoples' properties...But most of the time they are just bulldozed anyway.
they just didnt know about vft's that time.
anyway, does it look like pheonix is trying to sell the nep? he's multiplying it, also in this thread, he is asking what is the best way to multiply. why would he ask that? most likely to put it back to the wild.
Halt he also said he is going to try and send some out to us here in the US.
and Jimmy, laws may something is right or wrong, but it doesnt mean crap. laws say to kill polar bears on sight in iceland if they cross from greenland, as you know, they are critically endangered. Does that make it right? NO
he said he walks out to the woods to collect them
they are NOT in his back yard in that case, he never specified that they were. so if that is the case, go for it
but removing them is just not right.
excuse me for having morals
and Jimmy, laws may something is right or wrong, but it doesnt mean crap. laws say to kill polar bears on sight in iceland if they cross from greenland, as you know, they are critically endangered. Does that make it right? NO
he said he walks out to the woods to collect them
they are NOT in his back yard in that case, he never specified that they were. so if that is the case, go for it
but removing them is just not right.
excuse me for having morals
I don't see the difference between the two types of collecting, SK, except for the fact that N. mirabilis and N. thorelii are widely and commonly distributed in the wild compared to the "newly discovered varieties or species," which obviously are not so widely-distributed. Indeed, there IS a big difference, but you are looking in the wrong places for truths. Neither are wrong in my eyes, and I'm not going to complain or discourage any of these legal activities, because I enjoy, appreciate, and care for Nepenthes.
I see that Phoenix is doing a very nice job of growing this species legally, and with plenty of genetic variation, and that is enough for me NOT to complain about it. As long as he gets the proper export paperwork to trade, it is perfectly fine.
I see that Phoenix is doing a very nice job of growing this species legally, and with plenty of genetic variation, and that is enough for me NOT to complain about it. As long as he gets the proper export paperwork to trade, it is perfectly fine.
Legal isn't always right like I said before. There are so many things wrong with many laws. You cabt honestly think that its right. So if you lived up the road from neps that were not yet protected because the country just doesn't give a plain damn about what happens, you would remove them? If the land was in no danger of being renovated on, I see no reason why the plants should be disturbed. Its wrong in my eyes and in the eyes of everyone I have discussed this with. You seem to be the only person that is down for habitat destruction....ooooh I know why, its because you believe all plants should be of seedgrown origin isn't it? Mr. Would not waste your time with a tc rajah...well I see you have a tc hamata and many other tc plants, why are you so dead set on only owning a sg rajah...all of em are in private collections and I completely understand why....why don't you just ask a native resident in borneo to dig one up and send it to you from a part of their back yard.
Actually, i'm just save them from the project for building a new city . And the goverment supported me and some guys who can save and take nature plants from this forest when the project starting. If you say that is illegal SirKristoff, i don't know what is legal... 
. And when i saved them ( Nepenthes) i'm trying find the way to grow them, to mutiplies them, and to take them back to other forest. And the reason when i ask what is the best way to multiplies them because when i try to multiplies them by raise the branchs , just 20 - 30% can become new plants, the other you know, die..
. And when i saved them ( Nepenthes) i'm trying find the way to grow them, to mutiplies them, and to take them back to other forest. And the reason when i ask what is the best way to multiplies them because when i try to multiplies them by raise the branchs , just 20 - 30% can become new plants, the other you know, die..That is just plain rude, SK. I have no idea why you wanted to turn this into a verbal bloodbath. I am not down for habitat destruction - I never said I was - I just realize it's happening everywhere. And I happened to realize that that was what was happening, so this WC thing that Phoenix does is not bad.
TC plants are good for trying before you actually try (kill) a SG plant. I am trying those TC plants because I'd like to be ready for SG plants of the same species when the opportunity arises. I mean, a SG N. hamata has no small price tag. Now I realise that it doesn't actually take so much effort to grow HL Nepenthes. If a SG rajah presented itself back at that point, I would have set up all the right conditions to accomodate it (and still would) - by no means a small task - because it is SG, not some TC clone. A TC clone would not have gotten the royal treatment, because everyone is growing it to a good size, and there would be nothing different about it. Therefore, it might have died due to improper conditions (NM is subject to hot summers, afterall) - so I would just try some of the easier (and more interesting) species.
Realize that the USA is blinded from the activities that are happening in Nepenthes habitats; we only occasionally see a fraction of developmental activities that wipe out these populations forever. Wild collection is not as bad as it is reputed if you are able to see the underlying cause.
I would never ask a resident of Borneo to dig me up an N. rajah, for my own selfish purposes. I am not "dead set" on having one, either. Don't be so ridiculous, and show a little respect, please.
You are excused and forgiven for false perception.
Sincerest Regards.
I think it's also worth mentioning that a lot of the plants Rob finds end up getting mowed down at some point. On top of that, it's not like Pheonix is out there raping the jungle(quite the opposite, it seems), and I doubt there's enough people in that country interested in Nepenthes to make much of a difference even if they all decided they wanted one. And just because they aren't on a construction site right now, doesn't mean they won't be in the near future. I understand where Kris is coming from, but I don't think this case is the right one to get so worked up about these things.
carnivoure12
Hear the Call of Nepenthes
I think from a moral and conservatory sense, it is bad to collect plants from the begginning. Either way, people will want them, and cause their demise. I think that just because the law doesn't state that collectiong a specific plant is bad, it doesn't mean you can go ahead and collect it. There roles we have to play as humans, we already have caused a lot of harm. It is up to us to help to recuperate the balance. I think all those plants that were collected from the wild should be reintroduced and admired there. And be happy with whats readily available. The fact of just taking a few cuttings from the mother plant in the wild could affect the mother, this is why I don't believe in taking cuttings and leaving half the plant behind.
Jimmy notice i wasnt even being defensive about anything or saying anything negative until you brought stuff up. i was just simply saying he would need permits.
only when you started posting these big explanations on stuff, did i get defensive because its rude to me, it makes me feel like your trying to prove yourself smarter than me, so in a way, your at fault too.
i was not intending on being rude. i was simply making a point, you cant be two faced about things like these, it makes no sense.
only when you started posting these big explanations on stuff, did i get defensive because its rude to me, it makes me feel like your trying to prove yourself smarter than me, so in a way, your at fault too.
i was not intending on being rude. i was simply making a point, you cant be two faced about things like these, it makes no sense.
