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Nepenthes hybrid...

  • #21
i aint trying to be confrontational....speaking from my experience and the experience of the nep growers i talk to regularly which range from me up in the middle of nowhere in a rather harsh climate(few inches of rain from being labeled desert with extream temps in both directions) and am growing in my basement under lights to individuals growing them in greenhouses, Pyro grows alot of his plants in a crawlspace under lights and has stated he grows a hamata on a windowsill in Atlanta, not exactly a highlander paradise......

one thing to take in consideration about me is my wife and i run two newspapers, and beating around the bush aint my strong suit....prolly doesnt help that negotiations with one of the two school personnel unions is starting up and they dont have a particularly high opinion of my wife and i because even though my dad is in on of the unions we keep things pretty well down the middle and dont print just pro union/anti school board stuff.....at some point in the next couple months im going to get a late night drunken phone call from a union member threatening to run my arse out of town....happens every time....

hamata isnt CITES I listed so that aint an issue.....actually most of the CITES I CP's are fairly easy to get ahold of but the only neps listed as such is rajah and khasiana i believe, the others listed are Sarrs....

do believe the majority of Andreas's plants wind up through out Europe and relatively few here go through the headache to buy from him directly so they pay higher prices through a secondary seller(i have gotten plants directly from him and via secondary sellers)........i know of more hamatas for sale in the last year than i saw jacs for sale and no one claims jac is terribly difficult, do believe atleast half a dozen of those hamatas went for significantly less than $100.....

do believe the vast majority of plants as far as numbers coming into the US are from across the other ocean and one of them who had hamatas in TC i believe had to destroy all his stock both in TC and plants that had been removed from TC due to some legal issue which is what caused the shortage that has extended these last few years......they are getting more common once again as the production is getting back up.....so the first ones coming are more expensive due to supply and demand......its the way the world works.......its not due to them being extreamly difficult and touchy other than maybe being sensitive to humidity when young.....
 
  • #22
This last post is difficult to respond to.
I don't want to know about your job, union woes, or drunks beating on your door.
This isn't your or my blog.
For anyone involved in the press this is a terrible breach of etiquette.

I truly appreciate the information on the TC importation/destruction. I truly take note and do see that quite differently.

Good growing,
Jack
 
  • #23
Jack I appreciate that you are new here and please pardon me if I come off as a bit harsh sounding but kindly do not tell other members what they can and can not post. We are not a strict, stick to the point forum, we are rather loose and free here. Rattler is more than welcome to talk about his job and union woes and what not. And he was not posting it to "blog" but to make you, the newbie to the site, aware of why he was so blunt in his comments after you accused him of being confrontational. People who have been here know his style and none of them would have taken him as confrontational. You did and he felt a need to explain why. Do not jump on him for that.

Now, as for the hamata drama...

The reality is there is a reason you can't buy them for under $100 unless you make a REALLY good trade...

The reality is you can buy one for less than $50. Just look around, they are out there. Hades! I gave away half a dozen this past year and sold twice that many for $40 shipped!!

The over $100 ones are the just released seed grown which is why they have such a high demand. High demand makes for high prices. Basic economics...

the professionals who grow Neps for a living have a hard time propagating them.

How many "professionals" do you know? As in personally know, not just know of? Just curious.

The experts (and I hate using that word cause even they do not use that word for themselves) that I know have no trouble growing them and propagating them. It is just that few of them want to hack up their plants and send out rooted cutting to people. Especially when the majority of those people are the instant gratification types who think that offering a D. capensis in trade for a hamata is fair or that think having to pay more than $50 for an well established, large rooted cutting is exorbitant. Maybe if they had to put the years of time and effort into growing a hamata to 1m tall so that it was cuttable they would feel a bit different. But, as rattler alluded to, most of those types will not be growing CPs in 2 years time so they just do not get it.

As for professional propagators, I have spoken to a couple of them and hamata is not ultra amicable to TC so there is a small bottle neck there but it is not a huge one. Same situation with a number of Neps that are also easy to get.

And in reality everything i stated I've read about repeatedly...

There is a big difference in what you have read and what actually is. I read Savage Garden when I first go back into growing CPs. Now do not get me wrong, Pete is a great guy but after 10 years of growing there is not a lot in his book that applies to how I am actually growing my plants. That is reality. So you have read all over the web (of lies) that hamata is difficult... That does not mean it actually is. What you are reading is from all the people who are having troubles. You are not reading about all the people who are succeeding cause they are not coming to forums asking questions... They know what they are doing and their plants are growing just fine. Why then would they be all over the forums asking for help?? It is a disproportional display, not even close to a valid statistic.

...So if it's not that difficult, why is it so loved but yet not available?

It is loved because it is so exotic looking, has nothing to do with difficulty.

And as for availability, like I said above, it is easily available for cheaper that a lot of other Nepss if you just put a little effort into the search.

The famed easy to grow much loved giant truncata is everywhere, mixed with everything.

Apples to oranges here. The "much loved giant truncata" is everywhere cause it was discovered a couple hundred years ago and has been in cultivation almost as long. It has gone through numerous rounds of mass market TC distribution (and BTW it is one of those plants that is super amicable to TC). The flip side is that hamata has not been in cultivation for nearly as long. Heck, it was discovered less than 20 years ago! And, as rattler stated above, one of the major sources for it had to destroy their entire stock for legal reasons which set back the supply.

Where are the nurseries brimming with these profitable, easy to grow (?), completely in demand plants?

I am sorry, this almost has to be rhetorical... Where are the nurseries brimming with N. jacq? Or with N. veitchii? Or N. bical? Or with N. truncata? There are no nurseries brimming with any CPs, there are only the few specialized CP vendors. CP growers make up a fraction of 1% of total plant growers. We are an enigmatic group on the outskirts of gardening. The only CPs brimming anywhere are the cheap "disposable" ones like VFTs, a few Sarrs and even fewer uber easy Neps. Novelty items. You are not going to find any nursery with brimming supplies of all Nep species.
 
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  • #24
as Pyro said, from my end it looked like you were calling me confrontational.....being a newbie to this site was just giving yah a background on my "style" of posting.....most anyone thats been here very long knows it and doesnt take it wrong most of the time.....was an FYI and nothing else......most new members do tend to take me wrong......

as for the rest.....i think Pyro covered better than i can.........
 
  • #25
Look, I tried joking a little in my one of the last posts. That went over like a turd in a punch bowl.
I wasn't trying to get him worked up. It wasn't an "accusation". It was an apology of sorts. Obviously rattler isn't the only one who can be taken wrong.

Thank you for hammering it home pyro. Cause obviously my concession to his point:
"I truly appreciate the information on the TC importation/destruction. I truly take note and do see that quite differently." (sorry I'm not practiced at the quotation), is meaningless.
I'm not trying to pick fights. There are things that make a jerk but I'm not telling everyone about it. And truth is a LOT of people have problems with this plant. A lot of people have problems with rajah. I bought one anyways. I'll take a chance, but even if I'm successful I'm not labeling it as easy. I do shop all over the place and there's not a great deal of places to find them right now. And Wistuba has three vendors obtaining directly from him hence no middle-man issues if you "shop around". As for apples to oranges i'm talking about Nep nurseries for the love of peat, not lowes. Easy neps are everywhere (even Home Depot), and not because they're centuries old but because they're EASY. Obviously hamata is a good bit easier than most everything I've read so far (yeah, i've got The Savage Garden, But I'm talking forum admin. types and no I don't personally know 'pros') but I have already conceeded to that point. I haven't stretched anything to make it my own and I really want this to end. I complimented rattler's success and wish to achieve the same. Other than that I'm glad hamata is not as challenging as I thought. I really don't want to be seen win the wrong light either and wish you both the best of luck with your plants and endeavors.
 
  • #26
Even as I read my own post, "hammering it home" is over the top and I don't mean by implication to call rattler a "jerk". Truly I didn't come here to make enemies.
 
  • #27
Haha man, this thread is just a bucket of lols, jack, it's fine really, I'm sure nobody's panties are twisted up from this one.


Also, Pyro, I must be really bad at searching cause I cannot seem to find any 50 dollar hamatas or even under a 100. and, how certain are you that a hamata that's over 100 (165) is seed grown?

I've always wanted one, and I remember there being lower prices than I see these days, but if it is seed grown I might not mind shelling extra bucks out there.
 
  • #28
this thread is just a bucket of lols
lol =]

anywyas. im going to put my .02 in here too. hamata is the only availiable plant that i have not seen drop damatically in price... N. x trusmadiensis is one that has dropped WAY WAY WAY far... from plants being sold in to the many hundreds and even thousands no to only what...like 150 or something. lowii and rajah are two other that i can note. when i first started growing what...4 years ago? lowii regularly ran up to 80 dollars for a plant you can get today for less than 20. rajah ran up in to the hundreds and can now be found for about 20 dollars or so. supply and demand has something to do with the hamata thing obviously. BE and Wistuba know N. hamata will sell like mad when they are released. not to bash either of them, they do know this and they will sell them for an outrageous amount. have them put hamatas out for even 40$ for a while and then pop em back up to 100 dollars and not as many people will buy since they got a taste of the plants being cheap. would anyone buy a rajah or lowii if the price was back to what it was? no.

that aside, the truth is that you can find small plants from other growers for sale or trade. and they are not even near as outrageous as suppliers. ive found several from other growers but never traded or bought one since i have this internet crap going on. i do grow its cousin N. tentaculata and it has never given me problems. but that says nothing about hamata other than the general growth rate and conditions. and since ive never grown it im not going to comment on it other than to some people it grows like a champ and to others it grows like a rock. you cant really tell what its going to do untill you get it.

and with that. everyone whos being rough.....chill...
 
  • #29
Thank you for hammering it home pyro.

I do not know that I was hammering it home. Again, being new to the site, you are not that familiar with how some of the members here operate. When there is a lot of info in a chain of threads then I will do a point by point. It is not done to hammer anything home but to make sure I cover everything asked/addressed. That is just my way, nothing personal meant by it and I apologize if it came off that way.

Cause obviously my concession to his point:
"I truly appreciate the information on the TC importation/destruction. I truly take note and do see that quite differently." (sorry I'm not practiced at the quotation), is meaningless....

I'm not trying to pick fights. There are things that make a jerk but I'm not telling everyone about it.

Jack, I must say you are a bit on an enigma. Maybe it is just your typing style but you do come off as a subtle aggressor, trying to slide barbs in without people realizing they are there. Your concession, to me, was to that single point that Rattler brought up. It did not seem to be conceding to every comment you had made, just to the TC specific one. Which is why I addressed all the points you made.

And truth is a LOT of people have problems with this plant.

I never said people were not :) All I said was that this plant is not some great heinous entity that strikes fear into the hearts of all mortals. Yes, some people have problems with it, that does not make it super difficult/touchy. It just means some people have difficulty. Some people have problems with VFTs (I was one of them LOL, could not grow them for the life of me till a couple years back.)

I'll take a chance, but even if I'm successful I'm not labeling it as easy.

I do not think I ever said hamata was "easy". I just said that it is not the frail, impossible plant that so many people (usually people without years of experience growing it) make it out to be. I hope you can appreciate just how frustrating it is when numerous of us who have years of first hand experience growing the plant are ignored in favor of "Well I read that..."

I do shop all over the place and there's not a great deal of places to find them right now.

That is just cause it is the tail end of winter :) As the temps warm it'll become more available I would guess.

And Wistuba has three vendors obtaining directly from him hence no middle-man issues if you "shop around".

Maybe your definition of middle man is different then mine but going through one of Wistuba's vendors, to me, is not different than going through his importer. In both cases the plants go to someone else before they come to you. Also, in my experience only one of those vendors does not mark the price up from what Wistuba lists.

I really don't want to be seen win the wrong light either

I do not think anyone sees you in the wrong light. FWIW, I certainly do not.

and wish you both the best of luck with your plants and endeavors.

And I wish you luck as well. :bigthumpup:

Also, Pyro, I must be really bad at searching cause I cannot seem to find any 50 dollar hamatas or even under a 100.

They are out there :) 30 Euro converts to $41

and, how certain are you that a hamata that's over 100 (165) is seed grown?

Just because it is over $100 does not necessarily mean it is seed grown but considering the recent "rash" of posts about people's new, hella expensive new hamata have "seed grown" in the post... Some people might be riding that train to sell TC clones for higher than you could get them commercially. And some very dishonest people might decide to label a TC clone as seed grown so as to pull a scam... Comes down to how much you trust the person selling.
 
  • #30
lol =]

anywyas. im going to put my .02 in here too. hamata is the only availiable plant that i have not seen drop damatically in price... ..

you know 6 times in this thread by 2 different ppl have stated the main cause of this is one of the major suppliers had to destroy every single plant they had in stock both in and out of TC and start over from scratch do to legal reasons.........
 
  • #31
sorry rattler =/ it does make sense now. and i see the reason. pardons for my rush.

Alex
 
  • #32
Joe......sounds like you had a pest or disease problem.....if your keeping lowii and rajah happy it aint your growing conditions.....mine is growing along side raff seedlings that are quite happy...humidity is only in the 50ish% range aswell...........

That's a theory, but I have my doubts. I had two plants come to me a year apart, and there was no outbreak among my other plants in between. The first one came to me in less-than-ideal shape, and when it eventually gave up on me I wasn't too phased. The second one was a total mystery - it was in great shape when I got it, but declined just like the other one. The first was a second-hand plant from someone that hadn't been able to give it the conditions it wanted, so shock was no surprise. But the second was from a reputable source and had been hardened off beforehand. I've never had any pest problems with my Neps until a few weeks ago (a few scattered individuals of soft brown scale.) But more than that, the plants looked good at first. I have an eye for the health of things and I can usually tell when my plants are unhappy with conditions before they start to slip. So, when I find a plant that reliably bites it without much of any warning when I'm doing everything right to my knowledge, to me that's a "difficult plant." Given, my sample size as of now is two, but I've heard it from enough other people that I feel comfortable taking my experiences as indicative of a larger theme. I can only assume that my methods were somehow off, but when my setup works for everything else I try it makes me think that it may be the plant and not my own shortcoming. I would like to point out; successful hamata growers say that it can't be that hard and people must just be doing it wrong. But how many hamatas have you tried to grow? Is there a chance that you could've lucked out with a hardy clone or a particularly healthy individual? I hear lots of opinions, but most of the accounts I've heard of are based on one's experience with a single plant.
Maybe it's semantics about what constitutes a hard plant. (To some people, all CPs are finicky and exotic, as I think someone has already pointed out.) All I know is that I've had greater success with less effort with almost every other plant in my collection, and the heartache I've put myself through trying to do right by hamata is comparable to or greater than what I've put into every other reputably "hard" plant I own or have owned. If you want to argue that, feel free to send me one of your easy hamatas and I promise to give it an excellent home. :D
~Joe
 
  • #33
mine has survived two scale attacks......every time i think ive got them licked they come back......frustrating lil pest not sure if its residual eggs/larva or new introductions from new plants.....seen evidence for it being either...

not sure what clone mine is or if it is seed grown, the individual i received it from hasnt been active on any nep/cp forum i can find in darn near 2 years(maybe more? ive been in this house for 3 years so ive had it for atleast 4......not sure when the individual disappeared) to ask them....i received it as a tiny basal with nearly no roots......

as for success on some plants and not others....i cant grow D. adelae to save my life, havent had one last more than a week yet......southeast Pings are a group ive got issues with aswell.....
 
  • #34
Hey Joe,

I have hardened a fair number of these so I might be able to offer a few pointers. Can I ask what media you are using?
 
  • #35
lol this thread is awesome. Went from what would a hamata x bical cross make to how prissy hamata is...

I'll add my 0.02 - it isn't. I have three plants about the size of a nickel to quarter, in tiny pots in LFS under floro lights in my bedroom. No cooler, no mister, no fans, just some lights (cuz the cats would eat it otherwise, so I have to keep it locked up) and they haven't burned down, flipped over, and sank into the swamp yet and I've had it for a good while now, and even moved them during winter to a new house.

of course I keep cephs on a tray method and have for over a year and a half and not lost one so... got me
 
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