What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Anyone growing N. Northiana?

  • #21
could very well be......i would almost bet that the red clays are higher in iron.....most of the clay around here are from very fine high mineral silt deposits from the bottom of a huge inland see 60 plus million years ago from some of the first erosion of the then new Rocky Mountains....it has nearly no organic matter and alot of the stuff in it is more alkaline.....when the exposed clay gets wet with the snow melt at the end of winter it cracks quite a bit as it drys and unless organic matter such as dead grass and such blows into these cracks and starts to decompose not much of anything can grow in it....even most of the cacti wont grow in it, and the ones that do look pretty rough.....

we have one form of clay around here call bentonite...when it gets wet it swells up and actually forms a seal aslong as its wet and water will not move through it.....they use it alot in the lining of ponds, dump grounds, oil drilling pads and such cause what ever liquid that gets on it WILL NOT move through it if the layer is thick enough....

im not familiar with the exact geology of your area but i would guess that the red clay you guys have is alot older than the stuff we have here and its had many more million years to collect stuff via ground water and run off moving through it....the Appalachian Mountains started forming 480 million years ago....the Rockies are less than 1/4 that old......im sure in another few hundred million years the clay here will change forms more than a bit....
 
  • #22
Ahh that must be why the clay mentioned here works well with N. northiana. The clay I'm speaking of is red clay, and now that I think about it, after reading Jimmy's comment on Iron I'm ready to bet that the red color comes from Iron oxide being in the soil. I dont know if it's the clay itself that is rich in nutrients or if it is it's properties of retaining water that also help retain nutrients that make it rich. It could very well be that my clay is also poor in nutrients but retains much of whatever comes through it.

Indeed, Cindy's burnt earth that works miracles for N. northiana is reddish, perhaps indicative of some iron content. It's important to keep in mind that some Nepenthes, like N. rajah, are found growing in ultramafic soils - soils that contain high concentrations of many minerals and elements that would be lethal to most plants if you tried to grow them in it.

Around here, we have large swaths of fine red dusty clay that collects in the basin between the two local mountain ranges. Many desert plants grow in it just fine, and grow equally well in the coarse gypsum sand of the White Sands National Monument, and in the rocky/clay soils of the mountains.

On a side note, the arroyos in the nearby mountains sometimes deposit silt in certain areas... this silt grows large crystals of who-know-what-kind of minerals as it dries. I have pictures that I may have to post sometime of this strange phenomenon. It just goes to show that these cacti are growing in extremely alkaline, mineral-rich soils.
 
  • #23
What you mentioned about age and run off is a very good point which also points to a major issue I forgot to mention. There is a fairly large (for around here anyways) river that runs down the road from us (White river) and I do believe that we are a flood plain. So the retention of nutrients I believe is do to the retention of the clay, not the clay itself. That's as best I can assume without doing some drilling and sampling lol. I'm not exactly sure how old the ground is either but I do know that is a plain and that all of Indiana way back used to be covered in forests. I think you may actually have older soil due to living in Appalachian territory. The mountains would have brought older soils to the surface which may be why no nutrients are able to penetrate (as you mentioned for ponds, dump grounds drilling) such a compact soil.

I would be curious to see if non-fired clay soil would still do well with N. northiana. I would not that think that any sort of pathogen would be a factor unless it be a parasite. Soils are ridden with billions of bacteria per square inch, I would thing that over time and evolution plants would have had to develop resistance or a tolerance to such factors. The soil fauna found in clay here theoretically would be very different from the fauna of the natural environment so that may be a factor to consider.
 
  • #24
I would be curious to see if non-fired clay soil would still do well with N. northiana. I would not that think that any sort of pathogen would be a factor unless it be a parasite. Soils are ridden with billions of bacteria per square inch, I would thing that over time and evolution plants would have had to develop resistance or a tolerance to such factors. The soil fauna found in clay here theoretically would be very different from the fauna of the natural environment so that may be a factor to consider.

Very true. But of course, we do not see many pictures (if any at all) of the dreaded 'black rot' occurring naturally in Nepenthes in-situ. 'Black rot' is one pathogen that I wonder if clay might inhibit somehow.

For now, my little N. northiana is happy in Schultz orchid mix - about equal parts of fir bark, pine bark, horticultural charcoal, and arcillite (baked clay chunks), with a top-dressing of Better-Gro long-fiber sphagnum. :D
 
  • #25
I've heard a little about using charcoal but nothing as far as results of using it. What's your opinion on it and how effective it is at lowering the pH?

Funny you mention the black rot symptom, there was a thread from another grower not that long ago about a Nep that succumbed to it. I forget who it was exactly and when it popped up but the situation was as well in vitro. In general many lower pH inhibit bacteria growth or any living matter for that matter except for a few so I would be curious to know what exactly 'the black rot' is. So many questions from just one thread haha

I'd like to hear about you're results with charcoal and hopefully get a little bit of detailed information and your opinion (and anyone elses for that matter) with it as to whether or not it would a good idea to implement it in a general Nep mix. :)
 
  • #26
I have used charcoal as a component for years in Nepenthes, Sarracenia, Dionaea, and Cephalotus composts -- primarily as an additional source of aeration and drainage, not as an agent to lower pH; though many species do grow in areas frequented by wildfire, and it seemed like a logical ingredient for a planting mix. Charcoal does neutralize some chemicals such as chlorine, but whether it's that helpful in the small amounts seen in composts -- usually ten percent or less -- is doubtful . . .
 
  • #27
the major problem with us discussing clay as a soil additive is that there are roughly 30 different pure clays.....most natural clays are a mix of these 30 pure clays and can include other minerals such as the iron we are discussing.....when i talk about clay here in Montana im talking about something actually a bit different in properties and composition than the common red clay back east and your red clay is prolly different from the red clay Cindy is talking about.....its about enough to drive a guy to drink :D ....and even here i run into variations in the gray clay cause some of it is clay produced by marine deposition and some of it is as near as anyone can figure decomposed volcanic ash.....
 
  • #28
I have used charcoal as a component for years in Nepenthes, Sarracenia, Dionaea, and Cephalotus composts -- primarily as an additional source of aeration and drainage; though many species do grow in areas frequented by wildfire, and it seemed like a logical ingredient for a planting mix. Charcoal does neutralize some chemicals such as chlorine, but whether it's that helpful in the small amounts -- ten percent or less -- seen in composts is doubtful . . .


I agree with the idea that it would be a common 'ingredient' in these soils as many Sarracenia so encounter wild fires frequently. Though the charcoal would minimize the charcoal would it be a necessity if say one were to use strictly rain water and RO water so that no chlorine or very little would be present? I was mainly aware that charcoal was in use for pH levels as well as aeration.

So do you use more then 10% within your mix? I"m assuming the charcoal used for the mix isnt the 'bbq' type of charcoal so where would I go about obtaining it? How large is it in the mix? (bbq charcoal size, dust or in between?) I would be curious to do a litmus paper test and take a look at the pH difference between soils containing charcoal and ones not containing.

Sorry for so many questions, i feel like I'm taking the thread over :S
 
  • #29
the major problem with us discussing clay as a soil additive is that there are roughly 30 different pure clays.....most natural clays are a mix of these 30 pure clays and can include other minerals such as the iron we are discussing.....when i talk about clay here in Montana im talking about something actually a bit different in properties and composition than the common red clay back east and your red clay is prolly different from the red clay Cindy is talking about.....its about enough to drive a guy to drink :D ....and even here i run into variations in the gray clay cause some of it is clay produced by marine deposition and some of it is as near as anyone can figure decomposed volcanic ash.....

You bring up yet another good point that makes my mind twirl in circles lol.
The red clay that Cindy is talking about is from the Indonesian islands and from the sounds of it nutrient poor. The thought of Indonesia led me to the high rainfall thought and that brings me to the realization that that tropical rain forest soils are also very low in nutrient content due to the high rain content washing minerals away. Yet there is no where else on Earth where one can find so many different plants growing in one location.
 
  • #30
Jimmy:

What kind of conditions are you supplying your plant with? How hardy has it been in your conditions?
 
  • #31
I agree with the idea that it would be a common 'ingredient' in these soils as many Sarracenia so encounter wild fires frequently. Though the charcoal would minimize the charcoal would it be a necessity if say one were to use strictly rain water and RO water so that no chlorine or very little would be present? I was mainly aware that charcoal was in use for pH levels as well as aeration.

So do you use more then 10% within your mix? I"m assuming the charcoal used for the mix isnt the 'bbq' type of charcoal so where would I go about obtaining it? How large is it in the mix? (bbq charcoal size, dust or in between?) I would be curious to do a litmus paper test and take a look at the pH difference between soils containing charcoal and ones not containing.

Sorry for so many questions, i feel like I'm taking the thread over :S


Typically, I use no more than ten percent is used of horticultural-grade charcoal in a compost as an inert ingredient (though I know of growers who use more without ill-effects and others who do); and, considering what the other bulk ingredients are in any given mix -- sphagnum peat, sphagnum moss, some sands -- it is truly an acidic environment, charcoal or not . . .
 
  • #32
Frenchy: Eh. Charcoal is just another aggregate for me; I occasionally use orchid mixes that have it already mixed in with bark, and perhaps some other additives. I haven't noticed any ill effects while using it, and soil pH doesn't really matter, in my opinion - as long as it stays within a certain range that doesn't approach "concentrated sulfuric acid" or "anhydrous sodium hydroxide," lol. It shouldn't swing too far in either direction, and I'm sure that charcoal is inert enough to not cause any notable drop or rise in pH. I could probably see problems arising, though if you use more than, say, 30% charcoal in your mixes AND water with anything but pure water for extended periods of time without changing the media. But regular media changes and pure water are practically the norm for CP growers.

Davy: My N. northiana grows on my magic windowsill, lol. It grows right next to N. bellii (LL) and N. mantaligajanensis (HL). The N. mantalingajanensis grows near N. tentaculata, N. hamata, and N. glabrata as well - all highlanders that most growers assert require highland conditions... But right now, my conditions are in the very high 70's/low 80's, with 35% relative humidity. The N. northiana also grew well in intermediate/HL temps (still with low humidity, but in winter) I don't have any LFS in its mix - just aggregates - but I did use a thin top-dressing of LFS. It gets top-watered every 2 or 3 days.
 
  • #33
Cindy: I think you should go into business, exporting south-Asian burnt earth. At the cheap price you can receive it, compared to the price people here would probably buy it for, I think you could have a nice little export business going on. I'd be customer #1!
 
  • #34
I'm definitely no soil chemist but there are other soil variables which are likely at play as well, such as CEC (cation exchange capacity) and Base saturation... clay, charcoal etc. would come into play here, pH is one of many interrelated variables.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/IL64.html

In any case.... APS is probably a safe bet

Av
 
  • #35
it is sepose to grow on limestone cliffs?

right now i have a small northiana which i bought from C.K
my growing media: peat moss, perlite, vermicolite, coco nut barks, a bit of rock wool & several lime stones which i collected from Israel. i add my mixture Tricoderma which is a fungi that prevent other harmful fungi to grow on the media.
wright now my plant is acclimatizing so soon i will know if it is the wright conditions.

i know that northiana in wild habitat grows in lime stone cliffs, which has high PH levels.

i read here in this topic that people use "burnet clay", medium - i know it is grait for dranged soil, but how it resolves the Ca (CALCIUM) demand of northiana?

mybe i will try to add a bit burnet clay to my "soil party mixture"

Liraz
 
  • #36
Cindy: I think you should go into business, exporting south-Asian burnt earth. At the cheap price you can receive it, compared to the price people here would probably buy it for, I think you could have a nice little export business going on. I'd be customer #1!

I might if I live in indonesia. Imagine that we are already paying for the burnt earth at USD$1 from the local nurseries. The initial cost would be extremely low. But then again, the shipping would kill... :-))

The excellent thing about this burnt earth is that difficult plants are easy to grow in them. I have repotted N. campanulata, N. northiana and N. merrilliana and they recover very quickly with the usual watering regime. If I use sphagnum or peat, I have to take care that the plants are not are over-watered. Otherwise, root rot sets in.
 
  • #37
Then these would be yours!

campanulata_ratio.jpg


campanulata_lfsvsbe.jpg


I saw the thread while searching for N. campanulata on Google. That was an impressive difference.
 
  • #38
Clue: Very nice little guys. Is that strictly red clay or is that top layer and where were you able to find some? It also doesnt look fired...or is it?
 
  • #39
My N. northiana has been a very slow grower... It’s only produced about 5 leaves since I bought it over a year ago, but it has pitchers on each of them. Over winter it completely stopped growing (about November to March) but since then has picked up in pace a little. The leaves are at about 2 inches long with 1-2 centimeter tall pitchers. I have mine in an equal parts orchid bark, coconut husk, perlite and long fibred sphagnum mix.
 
  • #40
@ F R e N c H 3 z : Those are Cindy's plants.

@ Everyone : N. northiana, but you could start a thread about burnt earth.

@ Cindy : Don't sue me.
 
Back
Top