My rainforests

[vraev]

HI guys,

I think its finally time to show what I have been trying to achieve in the past year. I have been very hesitant to show it off as I wanted to wait till the plants thrive. Unfortunately, the summer hasn't been too helpful and my plants didn't do well at all. I don't think that will happen anytime soon, although I hope with all my heart that I am wrong. ALmost every plant inside has suffered as a result of the high temperatures. And on contrary to what you would think as an overly wet environment, on numerous occassions, the plants have nearly dried out inspite of the misting system. The fans work very efficiently and the media composition is very loose. On top of that, once sphagnum becomes dry, it doesn't absorb water easily. Hence due to many factors: busy life, neglect, low light (inspite of a 4x 4' T5 fixture), my plants have suffered and they look they are currntly in the worst state ever (almost everyone has stopped pitchering .. probably due to the past few months of 88F + day temps and 70F night temps). Over the top of the that, I have been having extensive BLACK SLIME MOULD on media problems and sphagnum doesn't seem to be liking these conditions.

Note: this is an older pic. I now don't use the humidifier anymore. ANd some of those plants in the nep tank are no longer in my collection.

This setup was a realization of a dream that I had since the beginning of my nepenthes obsession. I used to have a very large collection of a wide variety of plants and in the past year:

The above used to be my setup before the move last september into these tanks which were a great gift from my parents and brother. I sold off a lot of my plants to downsize it to these two tanks. They represent about 2000$ (1000$ for tanks (parents gift), over 800$ in plants (brother's gift)) of assets. The sad irony is that the hobo-style greenhouse setup was waaay more plant-friendly. THe sphagnum thrived and loved it. However, ever since I moved the plants into these tanks, things just haven't been the same.

Now, I am sure you think it looks beautiful. I love the way the tanks look. But this is a lesson that something that looks beautiful might not be as successful as you might hope. Sometimes the cheaper/simpler methods are more efficient and better at getting the results we want.

At this point, I am trying hard to optimize conditions in the tanks and get some sphagnum going again. As many have mentioned, sphagnum is like a "canary in a coal mine". If the sphagnum is in good condition, the plants will like those conditions too. If you look inmy old greenhouse setup, sphagnum used to thrive and form balls on top of the media many many inches thick. I lost almost all that sphagnum when my plants dried out during my cuba trip (mentioned in my macrophylla thread). There are only two pots (aristolochioides, jacquelineae) where it has survived and I am slowly propagating more form it.

I am also going to be checking my water supply soon. I used to have no algae problems when I used to buy distilled water form the stores. Ever since I moved them nto the tank,I have begun using RO water form my parents RO system. I guess I should look at the water quality there.

ANyways...I figured I might as well write about my experience and perhaps warn some people if they are thinking about making tank setups. (What not to do ).

I will end with some pics of what used to be...and what is.

THis is the last hamata pitcher I have seen in an year. I repotted the plant about an year ago and it hasn't ever been the same since. No pitchers since then. THis was nearly october of last year.

THis pic is of the plant taken a few months ago. Now it is stripped of all pitchers and looks water-stressed. I have repotted it again and this time put it in a bag to see if that will help.

I have also moved some plants higher in the left tank (communal plant tank) and trying to see if the higher light will help.

THis is a very very recent picture of how my tanks now look

Perfect example of "looks nice far away" but disaster "up-close".

Anyways... I know some people were asking me to show off how my plants look. Not as great as they once were.

Now...its open for opinions and feedback.

cheers,

V

PS: I have considered about going back to the "ghetto-GH" setup. But I am too far into the investment with this tank setup. I need to do my absolute best to make it work. I know a setup like this can work. I just haven't gotten everyhting to "CLICK" yet. I am open to suggestions and ideas if anyone has any.

 

[nightsky]

Honestly it does look good to me. But sorry to hear of the problems you're having with it. It definitely seems to be an art; finding the exact setup that works best for your specific conditions. I've tried a few different setups, and the transition between each one consisted of months of hardship on the plants, even if the changes were minor.

My young hamata was doing great like yours was, and I decided to remove the sphagnum top layer due to the difficulty it had presented in repotting with other neps (roots growing into the top layer). Man oh man, it dang near killed it! There were no roots in the top layer yet, but just the minute, localized humidity change has set it back months and months and it's been a challenge to try to bring it back. It's frustrating to have a nice, 'higher end' plant go into a decline. I hope your gets back to its old self soon.

 

[vraev]

Oh my god Nightsky!! That IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. WHen the hamata was in the old pot...it had a thick layer of LIVE SPHAGNUM At the top. When I unpotted it. There was almost NO ROOTS in the regular media and everything was in the live sphagnum. It was a horizontal mat throughout the live sphagnum. This was 1y ago when I unpotted it.
1 week ago...when I reunpotted the hamata again... NO ROOT GROWTH AT ALL. clearly hamata seems to love growing in live sphagnum only. Anyways... I didn't have too much...so I wrapped the rootball in some live sphagnum and... I hope it can establish itself.

 

[Taliesin-DS]

You got some rlly nice plants in there
I hope it will grow as it should soon.
I have great results with my hamata in 50% chopped living spag, 25% peat, 25% perlite/gravel.
After repotting it, it grew as much in 1 night as it did before in a month (it was in a mixture of dead whole spagnum strands/ foam chunks and had a pretty good root system)
I did put a thick layer of living spag on top of the pot.

 

[deeloc]

wow that's a neat setup...just gotta find the sweetspot again with your new tanks.

 

[JB in Utah]

Sweet setup, I think your plants look awesome despite your troubles.

 

[seedjar]

You have misters, but I think you should add drippers. If what you say about the hydration problems is indeed the issue, a steady drip in the same place will make a world of difference in fighting the appearance of peat bricks. Sphagnum doesn't mind that treatment either.
It looks nice; grown in it should be a great display. Applause on your effort and the boldness of paring down your collection to make it happen. I wonder though - how's it for air circulation? I see fans but no outlets. Do you ever have heat issues?
~Joe

 

[Frilleon]

I agree with seedjar. I see two issues that most likly contributed to the "drying out" problem you are having and would assume you see VERY high heat build up in the tanks.

1. No in let. for cool air. I have a fan sucking hot air out the top of my grow room. with inlets at the bottom. So I'm always sucking the hot air out and move cool air from the bottom to the top. This helps cool and add air flow to the whole room (or in your case tank).

2. Your fans are on the top blowing air down. This means your blowing all that hot air down on to the plants. This I'm sure is adding to the fast drying your plants are seeing. I would (if you can) move the top fans so they are sucking hot air out the top. add a vent (some add a second fan) so pull cool air in. Put these at opposite sides of the tank so you get good air flow through the tank.

Other things I see that I would change are:

1. Misters are very far from the plants. You can use the misters to water the plants, they just need to be closer.

2. On that same note the lights are pretty far from your plants. In your ghetto GH the lights are MUCH closer to the plants. Once you get good air flow through there you can get the plants much closer to the lights. My T5 is between 2-3 inches from my plants with no glass. I can do this becasue of the great air flow I have in my grow room.

 

[Dexenthes]

Those are some beautiful tanks. I'm sorry to hear that your plants have been suffering somewhat. The good part is that your definition of suffering is still leagues above a Nep actually dying.

As everyone else has been saying, I'm sure once you get into the routine and learn exactly what works best for the tanks, the Nepenthes will start taking off again. Something you could also do is line all the bottom of the tank with sphagnum and dump pitchers of water onto it. Then again maybe that's something not everyone has easy access to (large quantities of life sphagnum) but it would help raise the humidity.

Also like others have said, lower the misters, and direct the fans differently, I'm sure those tanks have the potential to be absolutely gorgeous Nepenthes dens.

They almost look ready to be a vivarium. I could totally picture some treefrogs in there.

Good work and don't worry, they'll settle in!

 

[Eden Marel]

Wow beautiful rainforest!! I would like to have something like this one day! Stunning! I love it!

 

[vraev]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the comments.

Let me answer some of the things brought up here.

1) Air circulation: That is a big issue. In my "ghetto" setup...the air was always fresh. NOTE: I only used te humidifier during summer and it was sufficient to keep temps lower than 80F during the day. Hence my plants never suffered last summer and loved the whole year of growth. 2008-2009 was the best growing season ever. EVERY single nep I got thrived. The air was constantly circulating from outside to inside and then out through a chimmney at the top. In the tanks that is the biggest issue. Its full of stale air. You cannot see it, but now, I have added fans at the top of the tank. One is pushing air in and another pulling air out. But being small PC fans, I know these aren't too powerful. But atleast there is some air refreshment. So, I am hoping things will change.
Ideally, I need the air to be FED in at the bottom and to leave the tank at the top. But being a sealed GLASS tank that cost 1000$ to buy and obtain, I don't want to risk making holes.

So yes!! AIR CIRCULATION IS ISSUE #1.

2) Heat: On the contrary to what you think, the meters read that the temps are pretty decent. Only during summer...they went overboard. But during autumn right now, temps are moderate...75F day and 60F at night. Perfect for most highlanders. SUmmer....since around march..temps have been 80-93F day ...but average of 85F and nearly 70F at night. I did use an airconditioner and occassionally drop temps at night to 50F. But I am sure this stressed the plants even more as ACs drop the temp suddenly. I get a feeling that these plants need a slow drop. No quick changes. Even if it is nighttime temps.
ALso note that these temps are taken at the pot level. The wires u see are probes for a temperature/humidity monitor. I know the temps get higher at the top of the tank. I can clearly feel the air warmer than the air at the bottom. But with two light fixtures (the 4' x 4 T5 and 2x 4' T8), there is no more room on top of the tank to have outlets.

3) Misters: The whole reason for buying the mistking system was for the SPHAGNUM. I have learnt through experience that if the sphagnum thrives...the plants will thrive. THe misters come on once every 2h for 45 sec (daytime only) to wet the plants. Clearly the broms in the first tank like it. But sphagnum still isn't taking off.

All I know at this point is.... The variables are not in balance. As our good friend Butch (Av8tor1) used to keep telling me.... everything has to be balanced: High light...high air circulation...high humidity....I know I have some variables in optimal level. I just need to optimize the rest. I just don't know which ones are which.

lol!! Btw...thanks for the nice comments guys about te plants being ok. But what I noticed is that the first time since I got them...the lowii, villosa, jacuqelineae, jamban, burbidgeae, truncata, argentii, hamata, macrophylla and rajah (those are all species in there. THere are some duplicates like of villosa, truncata etc. But I have lost some as well.) have all stopped growing and are showing signs of heat damage (red speckles on leaves...aborted pitchers).

Let me finish with another of my fav pics.

Can't see it clearly in this pic size...but you can actually notice each "rain drop". Love my D90.

cheers,

varun

 

[Tony Paroubek]

I am confused by your photo's because I see some nice mounds of sphagnum but you say it is not doing well?
Wetting the plants every 2 hours is probably excessive.. Sphagnum grows in wet bogs but it doesn't get topwatered every 2 hours. A light rain every day or two while in a fairly humid environment to limit drying from evaporation would probably be more to it's liking, and more to the liking of the Nepenthes as well. That is basically how often my sprinklers run during the Spring/Summer. This however can be tricky with the Nepenthes to be sure they don't get root rot, since they tend to stay pretty damp in the pots.

The red spots I don't think are heat damage, I am more inclined to think they are a pathogen. Particularly on things like the N. villosa and many of the other species you mention above.

I think the main thing you need to work on is your light. T5 are great but they still need to be placed 4,5, maybe 6 inches from the plants, not several feet. 4 t5 and 2 t8 are not nearly enough for the distance you have them at. Other than some small metal halide I am not sure what you could use to get the intensity you need at that distance. Maybe multiple large compact fluorescent... but I think if you needed to run 4 or more of those you might as well just get a couple small metal halide. That of course then posses the problem of cooling which would then become much more of an issue. hmm how about some high intensity LED.. no simple solutions.

 

[vraev]

Hi Tony,

The concern with teh sphagnum is as follows: Before in the GH, you can notice almost every pot was full and pouring with sphagnum. If I needed to start a bit, I could just take pieces and throw them into another pot. That was enough. But now, apart from the two pots where it is living, every other pot, whenever I try starting more, it gets coated by black slime algae. its like a slime mould...dark green algae. Also...the sphagnum itself isn't thriving or growing as fast as it used to before.

I know ppl say this may be too much misting. But the plants dry out very soon. Almost a day after watering the plants, the green sphagnum becomes WHITE. It needs constant misting. my media is mostly 60% LFS, 20% bark and 10% charcoal with the remaining either being more bark or perlite. A plant completely soaked with water till dripping becomes dry within 2-3 days max.

Here are the spots on the jamban:

the spots on jacquelineae

A bad pic of the slime. I have now put some moss on it to try and see if the sphagnum can grow on it.

Regarding lighting... as u mentioned,...heat was my biggest concern. Also efficiency and ease of management as well. This is why I selected T5s and added in the couple of T8s I used to use before. I know that some people use 6 or so T5s for neps. The tank is 3' tall. Considering the plants are raised a bit...you could assume that perhaps the platns are nearly 2.5' away. I am going to buy sme mylar soon and see if it can help in anyway. I just spent 100$ on bulbs not too long ago.... do u suggest I should look ditch em and look for metal halide? It is expensive and that means I need one for each tank.

thanks,

Varun

PS: villosa doesn't have spots. It just stopped growing and aborted its last two pitchers

 

[Frilleon]

OK, I see now. Most likely the drying is coming from the really warm air being blow on to the top of the sphag. The mix I use on my Neps is even more open and I don't have a misting system. You can raise the plants to the lights but then your putting them in the hot area of the tank so you would have to figure out better air circulation. The night time temp is a little high too. The combo of stale air and high night temp could be the issue. Just my two cents and it might not work in your case just tryin to pool knowledge. :grin:

The leaf spots look almost like burn spots but with your lights so far away I doubt it. Maybe rust fungus? Just a guess.

Other then that the sphag looks pretty good and the plants look great in your pic's! Keep us updated on how it goes!

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Thanks for the additional photos. Hmm well the lower light levels are probably affecting the Sphagnum also and reducing it's growth rate. Did you put any fertilizers into the pots at all that might be causing the algae problem? Perhaps the Sphagnum is less able to compete if the lower light is slowing it down while the algae isn't bothered by the reduced light intensity? Sphagnum in my greenhouse always has a difficult time because I feed the plants and it causes club moss and algae to grow on the potting mix.

The spots look like leaf spot fungi to me. The frequent misting probably isn't helping but N. jamban, jacquelineae and the rajah poking in there are all more prone to leaf spot pathogens regardless.
The symptoms you mention on the N. villosa with stalled growth, aborted pitchers would be more typical for heat stress. Leaf spotting usually isn't one of them. Distorted new growth could be though, although that is more usually caused by pests, but high heat can do it too. New leaves smaller than the old ones, which may or may not be paler in color, would also be another heat stress indicator for highland Nepenthes.

What kind of water do you use for watering and for the misters? What's the white stuff on the leaves?

I am still quite puzzled about how fast you say stuff dries out. Maybe you have too much air circulation and exchange? They really shouldn't dry that fast.. not even close. My plants still have water droplets on the leaves in the mid afternoon 6 hours after watering. And that is with the sun out and the greenhouse running 85 degrees. The plants don't really need to be in a breeze. One little computer fan is all you need to maintain just a gentle air flow around the plants.

---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

Looks like the light fixtures are directly on top. Is there glass between the lights and the grow chamber?

Fluorescent light shouldn't add alot of heat to a grow chamber. If they are then it is the warmth from the bulb itself that is causing it. You can put glass between the bulbs and the grow chamber if there isn't, and have a fan blow air between the top glass and bulbs to minimize the heat transfer. Maybe some more details on the air exchange you have going and how things are set up at the top would help.

And guess I should read more carefully.. where it says you use RO water. Deffinately would have that checked. That could be one of the problems for the algae situation.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

Not sure what to tell you on the lights. Maybe you could add a light on each side down near the plants to shine in. Like a 45w compact fluorescent in a reflector type fixture. Adding more lights though would add to the temperature problem. Switching to metal halide would put it through the roof... You would need some sort of active cooling I think, to use metal halide on an enclosed grow chamber.

 

[vraev]

Hi TOny,

thanks for taking the time to help out mate. I truly appreciate it. Thanks to you too Frilleon.

Let me answer all your questions:

1) Fertilizer: No! I have only tried using coffee once in january. This was coffee made with regular water..i.e., black coffee from a coffeeshop. (i don't make coffee myself).

2) Light intensity: hmm..unfortunately...my iphone 3g just decided to break down and this time...when I tried opening it...I ripped out a cable. Now its ceased working. So...I can't get a pic right now. But if you notice the burbidgeae peeking into the pic of the jamban with the red leaves. I would think the light intensity is NOT HIGH...but not too low either. I mean it is enough for the jacq, jamban pitchers to be BLOOD RED.

Fine! some of the other palnts could be a lot more colorful..I don't refute it...but I would assume that this shows that the light isn't terribly low. I do agree..this light level is TERRIBLY LOW FOR CEPHS AND VFTs. I say this after seeing how these plants suffered since they had the tank move. They slowly declined. Now that CFL lamp is glaring at them and i can see some color and vigor return.
Ofcourse.. as u said...perhaps I should add in CFL fixtures peeking from the sides for nep tank too. How hot will a 100-200watt metal halide be?

3) The water as u read is RO. I havent tested quality. It is from the whirlpool RO system that my parents bought at lowes. The white stuff is excessive trichoderma. i just generously spray whenever I apply. Now....another reason for white stuff was I used to use the humidifier during summer. This uses tap water as I can't afford to use RO water for it. (parents livein a diff city). So it is mineral deposit. But in the old setup..there used to be this buildup but no issues whatsoever with plants.

4) Glass: I used to have glass in between the bulbs. They are sitting right on top of the tank which has a metal SCREEN as the roof. But... I was thinking perhaps the cheap lowes glass might be decreasing light intensity and removed it just like a month or so ago...when I bought new bulbs. Yes...it contributes greatly to heat.

5) Seriously!! the plants dry out very fast. In the first tank...there is only one FAN. Inspite of the once every two hours spraying. When I come back home from school (8-10h after lights go on...and my own spraying in monring)...sometimes the moss dries out. Water falling on leaves evaporates within 1h.
In second tank (neps), there is a fan at the bottom pushing air from bottom to top at the pot level. This is to move cold air from bottom to top...also cooling roots in the process. I find this essential for my villosa. Then there is now 2 fans at the top of the tank leaning against the light fixture. ONE facing into the tank...another about 10 or so inches away facing away from the tank at an angle. All fans run during lighting time only.

thanks,

Varun

 

[Frilleon]

I would guess the fans are blowing directly on some (if not all) of the plants. This will dry out sphag fast. I have noticed this in my setup also. I have a T5 3-4 inches above my tank with a fan blowing parallel in between. I also use a ultra-sonic humidifier in the bottom. This will help low temps near the roots (plus it looks cool too). You could also run them 24/7 to help the drop temps at night. I run all my fans 24/7. My heat exhaust fan turns off about an hour after the lights.

As for the lights you have great lights. Adding more doesn't really make any sense to me. All you have to do is get the plants closer to the lights. My tank is tiered so I can have different sized plants in there. Can you raise the plants to the lights?

The general health decline is most likely from the higher night time temps. What we're the night temps in the old setup? I used to keep a lot of my plants in similar conditions. While they grew they did not thrive. Since moving my whole grow room into my garage where the temps drop into the 50's every night my plants have exploded with grow.

If you get better air flow through the tanks it should help with the leaf fungus. I would use some fungicide on it for now. It's not fatal unless untreated.

I think your pretty close, just some minor tweaks and you'll get it right. You just have to find the right minor tweaks!

 

[BigBella]

I have also found that relatively sudden changes in cultivation practices set things back a bit -- and that many highland Nepenthes are very particular about their nighttime temperature needs and any alteration; that being said, just give them time to settle.

Beautiful villosa as usual . . .

 

[RL7836]

V,
A few people have mentioned light intensity as a possible issue. While I don't know what the real issues may be, just remember that light intensity varies by an inverse square relationship (not linear as most people think). If you double the distance (ie: from 2" to 4"), the intensity is 1/4 of the original. If the distance is increased by 4 times (ie: from 2" to 8"), the intensity of the light reaching the plants is 1/16 of the original. Going from 2" to 16" is 1/64 of the original intensity!

 

[Tony Paroubek]

I would be careful about basing the 'intensity' on the color of the pitchers. N. jamban and N. jacquelineae will make nice red pitchers grown in a closet. Some plants like young N. burbidgeae will make red leaves. They do get redder in brighter light. I have seen them almost beet red, the entire plant. A little flush of red doesn't say much about light intensity. I don't think your light intensity is horrible but it is far from optimal also. Perhaps a simple solution like Frilleon suggests and put in a plastic shelf or something so you can place smaller plants up higher?

If you are up for some wiring maybe try one of those 100w 6500k compact fluorescent yard lights they have at home depot/lowes? They are pretty inexpensive.

Personally I would put the glass back if heat is your main issue. The little bit of light it may deflect is minor compared to the heat entering the grow chamber and the moisture loss out the top. It sounds to me like your other main problems besides the lighting issue, are too much heat and too much evaporation. Putting the glass on would reduce both dramatically I think.

How warm does it get outside during the Summer? Are you able to duct in some outside air to blow into the grow chambers? You can put an ultrasonic humidifier inline with the duct to humidify the air prior to entering the chambers when the system is working. That would be an inexpensive way to get cool humid air into the chamber. Swords used to vent the output from a window AC unit into his highland chamber. He had an ultrasonic humidifier output going into the duct to humidify the air before entering the chamber since the AC removes moisture.