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Nepenthes not pitchering

Hi people,

I have a problem with two N. ampullaria (Cantley's Red variant, see below) plants that I've been keeping for several months. They are very much alive, and occasionally sprout new leaves, but they never produce any new pitchers. Usually I see the pitcher-shoot beginning to develop at the tip of the leaf, but then they fail to develop into full-size pitchers and just wither. This is my setting:

http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125504

The water temperature is a constant 28 C, and the air temperature oscillates between 30-25 C between day and night. I have constant 80-100% moisture and a 400 W metal halide lamp suspended 60 cm. above the plants. The soil was a custom mix of long-fibre sphagnum moss, perlite, sphagnum peat, and large-grained quartz sand. Both plants suffered a good deal of transplantation shock and physical trauma (my cat rolled over them and broke all their pitchers.) However, I have four more Nepenthes (visible below, two more N. ampullaria and two N. bicalcatrata specimens) which have started to develop pitchers months ago. These two have woody stems and are older plants, so I'm assuming this has something to do with their failure to develop pitchers. I have never used fertilisers, and always RO water. (The island is waterproof, so no fish waste gets inside.)

Photos:

01NoPitchersILR.jpg
02NoPitchersIILR.jpg

03OtherPlantsLR.jpg

04RedLeafLR.jpg
 
Hmmm.... Judging by their lack of leaves, I would guess that maybe they both need to grow out a few more healthy leaves before they can absorb enough energy to pitcher. Just a guess though.

It never hurts to mist the tendrils as they form either. I've found 9 times out of 10 a pitcher will form if you make sure to mist it daily.
 
Hmmm.... Judging by their lack of leaves, I would guess that maybe they both need to grow out a few more healthy leaves before they can absorb enough energy to pitcher. Just a guess though.

It never hurts to mist the tendrils as they form either. I've found 9 times out of 10 a pitcher will form if you make sure to mist it daily.
Okay, I'll mist them daily and see if that helps. They seem to have a very slow metabolism: it takes weeks for a new leaf to fully grow. Somehow they also keep their number of leaves constant, around two or three. I have a theory: they need pitchers to absorb nutrients, and nutrients to grow pitchers, so they cannot break the cycle. I know that fertilisers = no pitchers, but maybe foliar feeding would help?
 
That's exactly what is happening to my neps (ventricosa) no pitchers produces the little fines but then shrivvles up?
 
I'd say they're not warm enough. IIRC Amps are pretty high up on the lowland scale, and considering your heli isn't melting...I think that'd be the case. Lowlanders typically aren't ones to creep slowly in growth.
Just my humble suggestion.
Good luck! Everything else looks great. And I like your taste in fish...bichirs = :love:
 
your plants look good, misting the tip of the tendril(basically the pitcher) will help a lot, remember that where they live it rains almost everyday, so the upcoming pitchers must need of water to grow properly!
Good luck with them!
 
The temps and humidity are fine....so why they aren't pitchering is a bit of a mystery to me....I can tell you that the leaf in the final pic has gotten WAY too much light....so it is probably too stressed to pitcher....you may want to shade it a bit.

My ampullaria pitchers well with even less optimal temps and humidity than yours, so my guess is that the plants are just too stressed.
 
Okay, I'll mist them daily and see if that helps. They seem to have a very slow metabolism: it takes weeks for a new leaf to fully grow. Somehow they also keep their number of leaves constant, around two or three. I have a theory: they need pitchers to absorb nutrients, and nutrients to grow pitchers, so they cannot break the cycle. I know that fertilisers = no pitchers, but maybe foliar feeding would help?

That can happen. If a nep is nutrient deprived it may not pitcher. Coffee or foliar feeding may do the trick.

This may be part of the problem, but only 2-3 leaves at a time give me a feeling that something else may be going on here. You may want to do some research on soil, water, light and temp preferences for amps. I have never grown one so can't really help out too much other than to say that 2-3 leaves with no pitchers tells me something is definately wrong.
 
You know, it seems like your growing conditions are right on the money. And if they're already at 80-100% humidity, spraying seems a little redundant. My guess is that they're still sulking from the traumas of moving and being sat on by a cat...how long ago were those events?
 
  • #10
Okay, I'll mist them daily and see if that helps. They seem to have a very slow metabolism: it takes weeks for a new leaf to fully grow. Somehow they also keep their number of leaves constant, around two or three. I have a theory: they need pitchers to absorb nutrients, and nutrients to grow pitchers, so they cannot break the cycle. I know that fertilisers = no pitchers, but maybe foliar feeding would help?

Some people swear by foliar feeding. I personally have no tried it. The coffee treatment method is another one that many grows have started doing. I've tried that once or twice and saw some noticeable effect. That being said, I've seen some people over-do the coffee before too.

Also, of course, because I suck at Celsius conversion, I just checked and it seems that the day temp for the ampullaria could be as high as 32 Celsius comfortably, with a drop at night of down to maybe 25ish.

And exo is right, as far as I know ampullaria are not necessarily plants that need to be blasted with light, so the plants are possibly getting too much of it. It makes sense, if they supposedly ingest detritus through their pitchers in the wild, then that would mean they are no strangers to having trees or other shrubs above them.
 
  • #11
That's exactly what is happening to my neps (ventricosa) no pitchers produces the little fines but then shrivvles up?
Well, I hope we can find a solution together.

I'd say they're not warm enough. IIRC Amps are pretty high up on the lowland scale, and considering your heli isn't melting...I think that'd be the case. Lowlanders typically aren't ones to creep slowly in growth.
Just my humble suggestion.
Good luck! Everything else looks great. And I like your taste in fish...bichirs = :love:
Thanks! Yes, bichirs are way awesome. Mine are babies, so I'm still watching them grow. The temperature range is 25-30 C (regulated by water heater) and from what I've read, anything higher than this must be dangerous for plants. H. minor, unlike other Heliamphoras, is not a strictly highland plant and can live in lower altitudes in nature. Hence the (apparently) lowland compatibility.

your plants look good, misting the tip of the tendril(basically the pitcher) will help a lot, remember that where they live it rains almost everyday, so the upcoming pitchers must need of water to grow properly!
Good luck with them!
I will do that! Thanks for your comments and advice.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

The temps and humidity are fine....so why they aren't pitchering is a bit of a mystery to me....I can tell you that the leaf in the final pic has gotten WAY too much light....so it is probably too stressed to pitcher....you may want to shade it a bit.

My ampullaria pitchers well with even less optimal temps and humidity than yours, so my guess is that the plants are just too stressed.
I have the same concern, and that's why I took a picture of that leaf. However, my younger Nepenthes also have reddish coloration and they are sprouting pitchers normally. I have a healthy N. ampullaria that is completely bright red, in fact. (Photo below) That is an old leaf, btw. The coloration usually develops over time, and appears harmless to me.

That can happen. If a nep is nutrient deprived it may not pitcher. Coffee or foliar feeding may do the trick.

This may be part of the problem, but only 2-3 leaves at a time give me a feeling that something else may be going on here. You may want to do some research on soil, water, light and temp preferences for amps. I have never grown one so can't really help out too much other than to say that 2-3 leaves with no pitchers tells me something is definately wrong.
I did. There's no universally recommended soil mix. Other parameters are fine, except maybe too much lighting as discussed above.

You know, it seems like your growing conditions are right on the money. And if they're already at 80-100% humidity, spraying seems a little redundant. My guess is that they're still sulking from the traumas of moving and being sat on by a cat...how long ago were those events?
Five or six months. All plants were affected, but all the other plants have adapted to the conditions and started growing pitchers.

91LushGrowth.jpg


---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------

Some people swear by foliar feeding. I personally have no tried it. The coffee treatment method is another one that many grows have started doing. I've tried that once or twice and saw some noticeable effect. That being said, I've seen some people over-do the coffee before too.

Also, of course, because I suck at Celsius conversion, I just checked and it seems that the day temp for the ampullaria could be as high as 32 Celsius comfortably, with a drop at night of down to maybe 25ish.

And exo is right, as far as I know ampullaria are not necessarily plants that need to be blasted with light, so the plants are possibly getting too much of it. It makes sense, if they supposedly ingest detritus through their pitchers in the wild, then that would mean they are no strangers to having trees or other shrubs above them.
The great mystery here is that I have two more N. ampullaria, Harlequin variants, which are growing nicely. The only difference between the two pairs is their age. What is the coffee treatment? Never heard of it. The air temperature in the tank is pretty much what you suggest, between 25 to 30 C. When plants wither from too much sun, either UV light or the extra heat is to blame (as far as I know.) I have a sheet of glass between the metal halide and the plants to keep off the extra heat and absorb the UV. Then again, maybe it's not enough.

By the way... it has been suggested on another forum that the plants may have entered their vining stage, i.e. they cease to produce pitchers except the infrequent upper pitcher, and that I may expect basal growth soon. What do you think of that?
 
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  • #12
By the way... it has been suggested on another forum that the plants may have entered their vining stage, i.e. they cease to produce pitchers except the infrequent upper pitcher, and that I may expect basal growth soon. What do you think of that?

That makes sense! And fresh green basals would be more likely to put out pitchers. Hmmmm...I vaguely remember reading a post where somebody gently bent a vine downward in order to encourage basal growth. Maybe something like that could help it along?
 
  • #13
Maybe I missed the mentioning, but what is their photoperiod? If their getting less than ~11 hours of daylength, Neps do stop pitchering. Just a thought...
 
  • #14
That makes sense! And fresh green basals would be more likely to put out pitchers. Hmmmm...I vaguely remember reading a post where somebody gently bent a vine downward in order to encourage basal growth. Maybe something like that could help it along?
I've been thinking about this. I could use a large metal ring and force the vine to loop around it, or keep the plant horizontally for a few weeks. Now that we're discussing this, I realise that the guys at the nursery may have cut off the first vining stem to promote basal growth in one of these plants. The plant, apparently, didn't react the way they wanted and sprouted a new stem anyway. (I guess if you have no basal growth in the first place, cutting off the apical stem does nothing.)

02NoPitchersIILR-1.jpg


I've also been investigating the coffee method Dexenthes suggested, and I'm planning to caffeinate one of the plants tonight. People say it works wonders. I'll use RO water to prepare some coffee, dilute it 50%, and keep the pot in an inch of coffee for three days. Then I'll flush the pot. Since I have two plants, it will be a controlled experiment of sorts.

Maybe I missed the mentioning, but what is their photoperiod? If their getting less than ~11 hours of daylength, Neps do stop pitchering. Just a thought...
They get 12 hours of light. I very much doubt too little light is the problem.
 
  • #15
I had my N. ventricosa under 9-10 hours of light over the winter, about 4" away from the lights, and it still pitchered like crazy. I was misting it more or less daily and dropping a few bloodworms in to the pitchers from time to time.

Of course I don't claim to be a seasoned Nep grower. This is my first and only Nepenthes, and I'm growing it right alongside a number of different species on the same shelf of my grow rack (Drosera, Sarracenia, Utricularia, Pinguicula) - something for which an expert grower of any one of those different species might want to thwack me with a baseball bat. I bought that plant on a whim along with my first ever order of CPs, so I know very little about growing the species. Just thought I'd add to your confusion :)
 
  • #16
I had my N. ventricosa under 9-10 hours of light over the winter, about 4" away from the lights, and it still pitchered like crazy. I was misting it more or less daily and dropping a few bloodworms in to the pitchers from time to time.

Of course I don't claim to be a seasoned Nep grower. This is my first and only Nepenthes, and I'm growing it right alongside a number of different species on the same shelf of my grow rack (Drosera, Sarracenia, Utricularia, Pinguicula) - something for which an expert grower of any one of those different species might want to thwack me with a baseball bat. I bought that plant on a whim along with my first ever order of CPs, so I know very little about growing the species. Just thought I'd add to your confusion :)
Thanks for sharing your experience. I've started the coffee treatment now, I'll post pictures if I see any visible difference. I think the plants are definitely in the vining stage, but it's too early for them to grow basal pitchers yet. I'll have to wait and see.
 
  • #17
The results of the coffee experiment, well...

Two weeks passed before there was any visible effect. Then, the plant treated with coffee started producing pitchers. Both plants eventually started pitchering, but the one treated with coffee produced shorter leaves and very large pitchers. This is the coffee-treated specimen:

156LargestPitchersYet.jpg


Edit: Strangely enough, the coffee-treated N. ampullaria is the only one which did not sprout basal pitchers. The stem of this specimen, as seen in the photo, is tilted sidewards. This is supposed to circumvent the flow of auxins and boost basal pitchers, but somehow the exact opposite seems true. Also, the plant decided to sprout a new vine from the middle of its stem! (Look closely to the photo, to the right and immediately underneath the small N. bicalcarata pitcher.) I don't know if this a usual or unusual phenomenon, but it's definitely a first for me.
 
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  • #18
whoa.. that tank looks sweet. Can we see all of it?
 
  • #19
whoa.. that tank looks sweet. Can we see all of it?

Thank you! Of course. You can check the Terraforums thread, or the photo album I've made:

http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125504
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j368/Whirlflux/

By the way.. I don't want to litter the forums with too many threads, so I'll post my new problem under this title. For some reason, both my N. bicalcarata have unhealthy leaves. The fresh leaves are OK. There are always one or two leaves perfectly green, but soon the leaves start developing yellow-to-black edges. Is this normal? I don't think so. Does anyone have any idea as to what may be the cause? The system is stable, but I feel too much lighting may be the cause (400 W metal halide) as the plants climb towards the light source. I've fed all Nepenthes with blackfly larvae (originally purchased for my fish) a week ago. Prior to that, I had not fed the plants for two months, since I fear overfeeding more than underfeeding. Is malnourishment the problem maybe? The pitchers themselves are not affected, only the leaves. Photos below:

164UnhappyLeavesII.jpg

163UnhappyLeavesI.jpg
 
  • #20
btw, to encourage ampullairas to send out basals, just let the vine grow and never cut it back. At a certain length tilt it so that the grow point is almost below the rootball and it will send basals out like mad
 
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