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Wild collected Nep seed purchase discussions

  • #41
So, one of your issues is that I might have extra seedlings that i'll kill instead of giving them away?!? You dont know me too well then. I have hundreds of "extra" sarracenia seedlings but I havent killed them or given them away and I wouldnt senselessly kill any extra nepenthes seed. I wouldnt think any grower would want any of my poached seedlings anyway.

No malice intended as amphirion mentioned so I do apologise. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the mini maxima as an example. What I meant to say is that with so many seeds going around, there ain't many adult plants in collections despite threads showing very good (if not excellent) rates. It does not pertain only to the States...it is worldwide.

Personally, I hope that besides the nurseries, growers also keep as many varieties/forms/plants as possible.

@dionae: I don't think Cindy was singling you out. Remember that she's been in this hobby way longer than the both of us, possibly even combined. She was just speaking from her own experience, and she's witnessed this event many times in the past.

Thanks, amphirion! :hug:

My personal belief after seeing the plants in the wild...grow only the weeds that thrive in my conditions. Anyone care for N. gracilis and N. mirabilis? :-))
 
  • #42
To the defense of albermarlesounds or ricardo, since I haven't read anything from him, has anyone here contacted the guy and verified if he collected the seeds without permits (or if having one is even a requirement under Indonesian law)? Cause until there's evidence that the seeds were illegally collected then people here might just be arguing because of assumptions.

I don't want to sound technical but we all know that posts in open fora like this could influence the minds of the readers and lead them to form prejudices against the object of the allegations, in this case, albermarlesounds. While it is every hobbyist's responsibility to protect the plants in their natural habitat, it is also our responsibility to refrain from accusing anyone of any wrongdoing if it's unsubstantiated because it could cause undue damage to that person's reputation.

I just want to make it clear that I do not support poaching and illegal collection of seeds. I just want that all sides are heard before making any judgement.
 
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  • #43
I'm usually not one condemn an eBay seller/listing for outright poaching without knowing more about the seller or situation (i.e. property ownership, local laws etc.) However, I'm sorry to say that these sellers willingness to break International Laws (CITES) and the laws of other countries (Customs, Agriculture) by shipping these in plain envelopes or intentionally falsely declared is a strong indication of which way their moral compass points (towards money). Just think what they save on CITES permits, phyosanitary certificates and tariffs.

To quote the listings:
"BUT DON'T WORRY, I WILL DECLARE THIS ITEM AS CRAFTING MATERIAL SO IT
WILL PASS THE CUSTOM ( IT WORKS TO USA AND ALMOST COUNTRIES )"

"But don´t afraid, I send seeds in white "bubble" envelope without any declaration and only
with my personal address and no problem with shipping to all countries till now."

Even if the seeds are being wild collected legally due to the number of seed being offered it is not being done ethically or in a manner that embraces conservation. Stewart MacPherson points out in the "Future of Conservation" chapter in his recent book "Carnivorous Plants and there Habitats Vol. 2" that due to the length of time that it takes species like Nepenthes and Sarracenia to grow to maturity (i.e. seed producing) that there be enough generations maturing at different times to produce enough genetically diverse seed to keep the populations from declining. These new generations also replace older plants that have died from old age, disease or from predators.
 
  • #44
NAN that is not an AMS listing youre quoting from.
 
  • #45
It's funny that this comes up now. We had a huge volunteer day at Meadowview over the weekend, and a some long time volunteers and former interns came to help. One of them had an idea for a few of us to take a trip to Borneo, another suggested adding Sumatra to the trip, and I suggested the Philippines. If this goes through, we'll be getting permits to sustainable collect seeds (2-3 pods per flower stalk). As this thread proves, there's an interested in legally, sustainably collected seeds. And, as you know, we're very conservation minded and won't be taking huge amounts of seeds. We'll probably be germinating the seeds ourselves, reducing risk of losing any, and selling the established seedlings. Hopefully this happens.
 
  • #46
I don't want to sound technical but we all know that posts in open fora like this could influence the minds of the readers and lead them to form prejudices against the object of the allegations, in this case, albermarlesounds.

And that is one purpose of a forum like this - to expand the knowledge of those who view. Obviously this thread is mostly just viewpoints and beliefs with some facts sprinkled in, but one would expect that the reader will take away what they will from this thread.

While it is every hobbyist's responsibility to protect the plants in their natural habitat, it is also our responsibility to refrain from accusing anyone of any wrongdoing if it's unsubstantiated because it could cause undue damage to that person's reputation.

I would like to point out that albermarlesounds was never actually formally accused (at least by myself). In fact it says it all in this thread's name: Wild Collected Nep Seed Purchase. Ebay, albermarle, or even legal permits are not mentioned. This is really a discussion about buying wild seed and whether that is the right thing to do under any circumstance. I'm of the opinion that it is not. The seeds of wild plants are so valuable ethically and biologically that I think that should any have to be collected they should all be germinated in the most professional facilities possible and then if need be the grown out plants should/can be sold or traded.

I just want to make it clear that I do not support poaching and illegal collection of seeds. I just want that all sides are heard before making any judgement.

That's the thing: I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this debate too. I'm rather surprised actually that these ebay vendors who sell so much seed of these fascinating plants aren't also then concerned with their germination or indeed the hobby culture as a whole.

I've not seen any posts here or in other forums from supposed ebay vendors. ??? Then again it's not like I have been watching like a hawk.

But if I were collecting seeds legally and really thought that what I was doing was right, I would certainly be involved with the community that I was selling to. I would be devoted to making sure that only the best and most competent growers get access to some of these rarer seeds, or that less knowledgeable people get all the information necessary to properly germinate them.
 
  • #48
That's the thing: I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this debate too. I'm rather surprised actually that these ebay vendors who sell so much seed of these fascinating plants aren't also then concerned with their germination or indeed the hobby culture as a whole.

I have spoken to a number of seed sellers with (and without) permits over the years, both in the US and abroad; and their real interest simply lies -- no mystery here -- with the selling of seed; and that the eventual buyer has the sole, ethical responsibility of determining whether or not to purchase seed of "questionable origin," and of both germinating and maintaining the eventual plants. The ongoing assumption here is that the purchaser has sufficient enough interest in the product, if he is already willing to pay handsomely for rare seed, and to wait weeks for an envelope from Saigon or some malarial swamp in Micronesia.

Without defending the practice of illegal collection by any means (and I am certainly not), why would anyone in their right mind face the judgmental Scheiß Sturm that this thread has become -- both here or on allied sites -- often by those very same people who will drop hundreds, if not more, on rare seed-grown plants, without any real consideration given to their origins? Judging from the number of queries I have received on how to germinate Nepenthes seeds, purchased from "popular online auction sites," there is no small amount of hypocritical hand-wringing involved here.

Without naming names, some of the most prestigious nurseries, the world over, have had past and ongoing issues with the "provenance" of their seeds and plant materials -- some well-known growers even being barred from entering particular countries . . .
 
  • #49
I agree.....glass house and all that....
 
  • #50
Well it would appear that there is some explanation coming from albermarlesounds, copy/pasted from ebay:

Due to some questions about this item in the future,i will give the details of this item.

Q: Are this seeds harvested illegally in the protected area or not?

A: We do not harvested in the protected area,we always avoid unlawful action.we harvested this outside of the national park or protected areas that against governmental regulations.the habitat is a local tribe's land.We only harvested seeds not plants.pitchers being cut for sample,and take some several cuttings for them to grow.


Q: So where do we harvested this?

A: Go to Sihanjung town and try to find some mountains there and make some survey of these species.


Q: What about conditions in the habitat? are they in threatened condition?

A: Luckily,the habitat are extremely safe,the mountain where these species live are sacred mountain by local tribe.they're saved by local rules that forbid travellers or foreigners entry the location with no permit from the elders.need at least hundreds of usd for foreigners to go there for 1 day guide.in the habitat found abundantly hundreds of seed pods' stalks that will ripe within 2 weeks,but we take it properly not for more than 4 stalks of pods.


Q: How many pods in 1 stalk?

For Jamban,can carry from 10 to 20 pods.For Lingulata can carry from 20 to 25 pod

Worth noting is that the title says N. lingulata seeds whereas the body of the post explains that they are in fact N. jamban seeds.
 
  • #51
@Dex: not really.... jamban and lingulata are sympatric.
wiki:
N._jamban_and_N._lingulata2.jpg


It's funny that this comes up now. We had a huge volunteer day at Meadowview over the weekend, and a some long time volunteers and former interns came to help. One of them had an idea for a few of us to take a trip to Borneo, another suggested adding Sumatra to the trip, and I suggested the Philippines. If this goes through, we'll be getting permits to sustainable collect seeds (2-3 pods per flower stalk). As this thread proves, there's an interested in legally, sustainably collected seeds. And, as you know, we're very conservation minded and won't be taking huge amounts of seeds. We'll probably be germinating the seeds ourselves, reducing risk of losing any, and selling the established seedlings. Hopefully this happens.

that's definitely great news, as im betting meadowview has the means to keep and cultivate these plants. I strongly suggest you keep at least 25 individual plants and raise them up until you find breeding stock pairs. maybe 2 females, 5 males, and release the remainders. this way you get a steady, sustainable source of seedlings. would be good if you can start up a TC lab too. remember to keep location data too!
 
  • #52
@Dex: not really.... jamban and lingulata are sympatric.
wiki:
N._jamban_and_N._lingulata2.jpg

This I know, he even explains it in his post.

I guess what I was getting at is that he failed to even write a separate description for the two species.
 
  • #53
Oh Brother!

Oh, collecting with a piece of paper that says you have permission is
different from collecting without the piece of paper?
Legal BS aside, taking is taking,
and if the person that takes is using good judgment, then less damage is certainly done.
But the "permission slip" in no way guarantees that someone will use good judgment!

What happened to people's common sense?

So we can get all upset here when one local guy goes & takes some seed,
but when a whole group of people from some other country, comes in to take some for themselves,
then that is somehow alright simply because they have a piece of paper/permit?!

Wow, history is full of this sort of "politics" & ordained permission!
Selling, growing, whatever is done.
Having the plants growing in a private collection often means doom or being sold off in time anyway!
I have had a Nep growing for over 20 years, and it amazes me that it somehow impresses people or that they don't believe it. 20 years is NOT that long kids! Especially when compared to plants growing in the wild!

I am sorry, I just don't get the difference. Is gathering seed to grow (hopefully) in ones own collection or to trade any different than someone taking & selling the seed to someone who is going to grow it in "their" collection?

So the guy makes money & perhaps feeds himself or his family, or buys underwear or whatever. What is the difference?

Is it better to spend a ton of money, ride in a plane/bus/car to get there & take the seed yourself! Use extra fossil fuel, polluts the environment, have a dozen people :angel:::angel:::angel:: trample up there instead of one person...
Simply because a piece of paper says you can do it!
Sorry, I don't see how that is somehow better.
Perhaps I am missing something? :scratch:
(I am not suggesting I am for or against collecting from the wild, but I don't see the real difference here where it actually makes a difference. That "permit" doesn't in any way guarantee that the people involved will do anything more "righteous or noble" then someone without that paper!

(Likely I will simply be upsetting some "entitled" & enlightened people who are somehow seeing themselves as better able to do things than anyone else.) I still find those people who purchased some seed from questionable sources at no more fault than those who have condemned them for it & now feel "right" in going up there & doing the exact same thing!
:lac:

Again, I am not suggesting I am FOR the guys collecting illegally. I am just suggesting that going there & taking seed is going there & taking seed. And to throw stones at one person for doing it & justifying your disgust with what was done, is actually not much different than the noble endeavor to appoint ourselves better able to handle the situation & do more good with the results.
As was said at the end: "....and selling the established seedlings".

How nice!
So people here jump down Dionae's throat for buying some seed, but it will be okay & he will have our blessing if we go there & take seed, grow plants & then sell them to him ourselves!
Oh brother!
Unbelievable! :headwall:
So tell me... in the long run... how is that any different?

Just what that place needs, more people going there to collect seed!
That will make everything great!
And how good we can feel about ourselves, that we did something the "right" way,
and not like those other "bad" people!

Count me out!
 
  • #54
I am not familiar with what permits are needed over there to collect wild seed, or if permits are needed at all.
What are the rules?

I made a major mistake in my initial wet blanket comment that got this thread started by mentioning permits. According to albermarlesounds, who's word I will take on the matter (rather blindly, I might add) permits are not required to collect seed where he collects. And his short Q and A session seems to make the case that he is cataloging new populations of species that have not yet been found before.

That certainly sounds nice enough, though I wish I had heard about his expeditions through a recreational pathway before a commercial venue.

That is also just one vendor's word out of three or so that do such things.

Regardless, I feel the real debate here (for me anyway) is still just as the thread title says: buying of wild Nepenthes seed.

Oh, collecting with a piece of paper that says you have permission is
different from collecting without the piece of paper?

Is it better to spend a ton of money, ride in a plane/bus/car to get there & take the seed yourself! Use extra fossil fuel, polluts the environment, have a dozen people :angel:::angel:::angel:: trample up there instead of one person...
Simply because a piece of paper says you can do it!
Sorry, I don't see how that is somehow better.
Perhaps I am missing something? :scratch:
(I am not suggesting I am for or against collecting from the wild, but I don't see the real difference here where it actually makes a difference. That "permit" doesn't in any way guarantee that the people involved will do anything more "righteous or noble" then someone without that paper!

Just what that place needs, more people going there to collect seed!
That will make everything great!
And how good we can feel about ourselves, that we did something the "right" way,
and not like those other "bad" people!

These are good points and I for one also don't see much virtue in the group trip to the tropics to go collect the seeds.

This debate is so complex, I just don't know anymore.

Going there and collecting seed is indeed wasteful in comparison to having a local do it. And one might argue that the entire process of CITES is in some ways over-bearing and bureaucratic.

However I am almost made ill by ebay being the source by which these locals seemingly unceremoniously sell these seeds to the slobbering West.

And BigBella's comment about prominent growers and nurseries being involved in this
behavior murks these waters even further.

Perhaps indulging ourselves in the cultivation of these plants at all is a barbarous and unfortunate activity, one that does more damage to the idea of these plants than it does good?

But then again that is the dilemma of being human and that is the affect that we have on the majority of the amazing and beautiful life forms that we encounter.

On a lighter note I have now decided what the topic of my final project will be for Anthropology 312: Humans and the Environment.
 
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  • #55
All you have to do is look thru man's history...
the LONG one!
We may be the "smartest & most developed/advanced as far as mental capacity,
but we are also the most destructive & vile.
With great power comes great abilities, whether for good or bad.

We can harness nuclear powers to create electricity to power a country,
or use the same powers to virtually destroy it.

We create Kings & political leaders & allow them to guide & control us for the greater good,
(as if they are somehow better able to tell us what to do than we are)
but the abuse of that power leads to the worst times in history!

-> Not all leaderships have been of our choosing, as many were imposed upon us!
And THAT is one of the reasons I fully support gun ownership & access!
We should NOT be subject to such tyranny!
(Those opposed to allowing people to own/have guns should wake up to the fact that such situations are just as possible now as they were in the past.)

In fact if you want a good wake-up call to that fact, try reading some of the quotes of the people who helped found this country.
They knew about liberty, freedom & the illusion of security "given" in exchange for them
And they knew about controlling governments & the oppression that comes from them.
And those who can see will realize that the things those men were concerned about happening,
are actually happening in this day & age!

History is full of these things that man does to himself, and indeed history repeats itself!
(It is the nature of some men to control others, judge & condemn them & to desire power & wealth over others.) Thankfully, not all men!

We may be considered by some to be the most "advanced" species on this planet, but we often don't act like it.
My bet is on the dolphins! They don't pollute & abuse their environment like we do!

By the way, aside from habitat destruction, it is US the hobbiests & collectors, that are entirely responsible for the demise of many CP's. If there were no interest in these plants, no one would be collecting & selling their seed & plants. They would have no value more than any other unremarkable plant.
We don't worry when weeds are destroyed. We don't sell dandelions on ebay! No one cares if some weed goes extinct!
 
  • #56
that's definitely great news, as im betting meadowview has the means to keep and cultivate these plants. I strongly suggest you keep at least 25 individual plants and raise them up until you find breeding stock pairs. maybe 2 females, 5 males, and release the remainders. this way you get a steady, sustainable source of seedlings. would be good if you can start up a TC lab too. remember to keep location data too!

We definitely have the means to properly grow lowland seedlings. In fact, we have some seedlings from captive grown N. truncata (only 3 have survived deflasking) growing very strongly in the greenhouse right now. That's pretty much the plan we would be taking, keeping the seedlings until we find the most robust specimens and breed those, with a good male - female ratio. Mike has a serious highland chamber which we could raise the highland seedlings in (Mike has done this several times very successfully). Depending on how long I keep my apartment, my windowsill is perfect for growing intermediates (Southeast exposure, and it's huge)! There's a TC lab at a nearby university, and Nate is doing extensive work with TC. If this trip actually happens everything falls into place perfectly!

You know how conservation minded we are. I would be beating myself up for years if we didn't record location data! Just about everything I collect has extensive location data. My mind just works that way, almost obsessive about keeping things organized. I have to know where my plants come from.

I think this plan would help a lot with the points GrowinOld brought up. We come from a reputable conservation organization and would not be able to sleep at night if we did anything illegal, or that would negatively impact in situ reproduction. We've been taught the importance of conservation for so long, and have seen why it's important, so customers could rest easy knowing they've come from a responsible source.

On a side note, I did not know N. lingulata was that small!!! I think I like it even more now.
 
  • #57
We don't worry when weeds are destroyed. We don't sell dandelions on ebay! No one cares if some weed goes extinct!

I would just like to point out that PLENTY of people care when weeds go extinct. A campsite I frequent always has conservation people near like a 10 ft x 10 ft spot where some critically endangered clover grows.
I mean, how many people care if a Nepenthes species goes extinct? A few thousand hobbyists maybe...much less than people who care about elephants. It's al lrelative...but there are DEFINITELY watchdogs for pretty much ever documented species.
 
  • #58
I would just like to point out that PLENTY of people care when weeds go extinct. A campsite I frequent always has conservation people near like a 10 ft x 10 ft spot where some critically endangered clover grows.
I mean, how many people care if a Nepenthes species goes extinct? A few thousand hobbyists maybe...much less than people who care about elephants. It's al lrelative...but there are DEFINITELY watchdogs for pretty much ever documented species.

Well, dandelions are an invasive species, they've just been here for a long time. Most common yard weeds are non-native species. Generally more people will care about something that has a cute face and fur than an unusual plant. I wish this wasn't the way the world worked, but it does. The poster children of endangered species are often considered cute by the general public. You'll notice that large, bony, and ancient looking fish like Arapaima gigas are of little concern to people outside of the aquarium circle, and the average person could care less about an endangered bug. That's why there are people like us. We care about the endangered species that most people have never even heard of.
 
  • #59
Funny you would mention that wireman. I am writing a sarcastic essay/critique of the use of "flagship species" by conservation organizations.
 
  • #60
This thread is full of well timed coincidences!
 
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