Hybrid Nepenthes Discussion

[UnstuckinTime]

So recently my significant other got into raising Poison Dart Frogs as pets. In that hobby, it is extremely taboo to keep frogs of different "morphs" together. Morphs are from different regions, and when they breed, the resulting progeny is "unpure." They worry about these getting back into the trading pool, and ruining the purity of the morphs. This was really interesting and got me thinking. In our hobby, people *try* to mix their Nepenthes to get new, interesting, and hardier plants. The orchid growing hobby is already decades into a similar trend, to the point where it's hard to nearly impossible to find a vendor that sells pure species anymore. This is especially true with plants that lend themselves to intergeneric crosses. My mother, who grew plenty of orchids in her day, gave me a couple species that simply *aren't* sold anymore, and a few hybrids that have "gone out of fashion" and aren't produced.

Seeing what the orchid hobby is now, and what is happening with Nepenthes growers concerns me a bit. I find it harder and harder to find Nepenthes species available on all the retail websites I use to frequent. I've been searching for months of a simple N. ventricosa, but so few places, if any, carry that anymore. Has anyone else noticed this? The rise of ever more complicated hybrids while fewer and fewer sellers provide species plants? If so, does it concern you at all? I'm not advocating that we all become purists and never make hybrids, like the Dart Froggers, but I feel like part of the role we assume when we grow these plants is that of conservationists, and we have some duty to keep plenty species specimens around should they ever be lost in the wild.

What're your thoughts?

 

[Whimgrinder]

Caveat: the following may be regarded as potentially "off topic".

Something I would include in this discussion is the practice of tissue culturing Nepenthes and then marketing the resulting plants as "conservation" material. I'm sure there are those that will happily argue that there is nothing wrong with tissue cultured plants, but I'm not so sure this is accurate, given the history tissue culturing has in genera like Orchids, where in vitro propagation has provided growers with numerous mutated, genetically damaged specimens that -needless to say - cannot be used for sexual propagation purposes.

Can we say for a fact that tissue cultured Nepenthes haven't suffered the same problems? Just because a plant doesn't show conspicuous signs of genetic damage, can we trust that there is no damage that would be passed on to offspring should the plant be used to breed more of that species? Although there is still much debate about this, it is accepted by experienced growers of many genera that any single clone of a plant that is propagated over and over for many generations is likely to suffer genetic degradation (mechanism not fully understood) that can appear as loss of vigor, impaired health, and visible physical mutations.

Speaking only for myself, should tissue cultured species become difficult to find in commerce, I wouldn't particularly lament the scarcity, except that it might push growers to seek out less ethical options to acquire, which would be undesirable.

That said, if you want some seed-grown N. ventricosa, I can help you this Spring. (From seed given to me by a private grower who produced the seed himself; plants now fifteen months old.)

 

[kevnep]

Well the big problem is that it is very rare to have two plants of the same species flowering together with the exception of nepenthes ventricosa. I mean how are we able to breed plants in cultivation if some species only have male representatives like nepenthes hamata, spathulata and possibly inermis. To be frank i think someone should go out and collect a batch of new seeds from every species and reintroduce everything into cultivation if we are to have stable populations in cultivation. And i know some people see taking seeds from the wild as poaching but i definitely dont if they are taken in moderation.

Im also agains tc plants. Spathulata from be is already damaged, mine essentially flowered itself to death which is a bad mutation. If we have more seedgrown plants that will be less of an issue.

 

[BioZest]

My knowledge of genetics is limited so correct me if I'm wrong but...

I think that from a conservation standpoint hybrids might actually be better. I learned that an organism has a genotype and a phenotype, the genotype is its actual genes and the phenotype the physical expression of these genes. So if we had a plant that was the most average nepenthes ever, we could artificially select over, say 100 or 1000 generations, the traits displayed by N. Hamata and get something that is pretty similar to N. hamta...right? Even if this wasn't possible maybe it could be applied on a smaller scale by doing a cross between two species that could be bred back to *close* to that original species... The only reason to have species from a conservation standpoint is for genetic identity, but what's the point if you can get a plant with very similar characteristics?

From a grower's standpoint I definitely prefer species. I think they tend to have more distinct traits that most hybrids...(which haven't been breeded for 1000 generations for certain traits ).

So if ten or twenty years from now the CP trade turns out like the orchid trade, I think its OK. If the only things separating species are characteristics, then hybrids may as well be species themselves...I don't really think it matters all that much.

 

[UnstuckinTime]

BioZest, you're right about the differences between phenotype and genotype, but if we ever got to the point of trying to selectively breed back the "pure" species, we run into problems. It's nearly impossible to independently sort the genes back to their original combination, especially in a plant like Nepenthes where the genome isn't manipulated easily. Even if we did thousands of generations of breeding (and can you imagine how long that'd take!?) we'd get maybe, what, one or two "pure enough" Nepenthes whatevers? I think it's far easier to keep the original species growing strong. I, like you, prefer species plants I think (which is why I brought up this discussion), and I am saddened that they seem harder to come across.

Kevnep, I hadn't realized that there were only male N. hamata in cultivation. In that situation, I share your opinion on wild seed harvesting (done by professionals, with permits, and given to people who can be 'guaranteed' to grow them.)

Whimgrinder, very good point about TCing plants. Not only do we dilute and mix the species we have, but spread damaged genomes as well! Looking at it from a commercial stand point, the time seed grown plants take, and variation they produce, is not viable (Which I think is what happened en mass to the orchid industry, with those "just add ice" phalanopsis, and indeed before!). Perhaps that's what makes the hobby-level growers that much more important.

But will the trend of growing hybrid popularity make species plants scarce? And only in the hands of professional botanical gardens and excellent serious life-time growers like many of the gurus that frequent these forums?

 

[kevnep]

Hi yes all the wistuba clones are male as far as i know and the be plants is likely also male since they probably used the same parent in their hamata crosses. Though wistuba has a female hamata that is likely seed grown but its not currently in tc.

I think that you may be right, though ventricosa is a bad example because its everywhere. The new species are really slowly getting into cultivation and only by wistuba and as you all know he sells at very high prices that is keeping people from buying them. Compare this to the myriad of cheap hybrids ou there and we can clearly see why vendors are favoring hybrids, but the finicky nature of species contribute to this as well. Would you rather wait 14 years for a villosa or macrophylla to mature or buy a vent x tm and wait only a few years with less difficulty in cultivation?

By the way when is the last time be released a new species or even some older species that are rare like the hairy hamata? Species plants are getting rarer ro come by, take for example spathulata. I know of only one place selling some seedgrown specimens, the rest are all one clone!!

 

[Whimgrinder]

Kevnep, I hadn't realized that there were only male N. hamata in cultivation.

Simply not true; yet another myth about the genus based on hearsay and anecdote. A quick glance at CPphotofinder will dispel this myth.

In the past three years I have heard people say things like "oh yes - company X only sells males to their customers because they don't want people using their valuable females for seed production". That too is nonsense - a myth no doubt based on the fact that there is a disproportionate distribution of male-to-female in the genus. (Approximately 7 to 3)

 

[Whimgrinder]

By the way when is the last time be released a new species or even some older species that are rare like the hairy hamata? Species plants are getting rarer ro come by, take for example spathulata. I know of only one place selling some seedgrown specimens, the rest are all one clone!!

At what point in the past twenty years have seed-grown species Nepenthes ever been easily found in commerce?! (Let's pretend, just for the moment, that Borneo Exotics didn't recently release a newly named species into commerce in vast numbers - over 2000 specimens shipped worldwide)

 

[Cthulhu138]

I am a bit of a species Nazi myself. I can appreciate the natural hybrids to a degree but, I've started trading off most of my man made hybrids. I (being a former Dart Frogger by the way....) have more of an affinity for pure species. I do contrarily make my own hybrids though, no sense in wasting a good flower or pollen. My homemade hybrids also make great giveaways or trades for new comers to the hobby.

 

[carbonetc]

BE-3495 could still prove to be female. I don't think that clone of hamata has been around long enough for people to get flowers from it.

 

[Cthulhu138]

BE-3495 could still prove to be female. I don't think that clone of hamata has been around long enough for people to get flowers from it.

True, the clone is too new to have flowered for anyone yet. Fingers crossed for female though ! By the way, this clone is an absolute BEAST of a plant. My 2nd fastest hamata aside from my seed grown Katopasa plant.

 

[Whimgrinder]

True, the clone is too new to have flowered for anyone yet. Fingers crossed for female though ! By the way, this clone is an absolute BEAST of a plant. My 2nd fastest hamata aside from my seed grown Katopasa plant.

Mine is growing exceptionally well also.

 

[Cthulhu138]

$100.00 says Paul is the 1st to get a flower out of it !

 

[mylesG]

i loveeee hybrids. there are only a handful of species i find to be truly superior. the hybrids offer many more great looking plants that would otherwise not exist. i dont care about purity or what is and isnt natural. we (vast majority of growers) are setting up artificial micro climates to grow these plants so very far from their natural habitat . What is and isn't natural has gone by the wayside a while back lol. We all choose different places to draw the line in the sand but I simply dont understand species snobs/nazis/purists.

 

[Red Lowii]

Interesting topic, here's my 2 cents on the hybrid vs species debate
Like has already been mentioned, the majority of species require specific conditions that only a good greenhouse can accommodate.
Being short of such a greenhouse, creates the dilemma of either I grow a few relatively easy species and leave my collection at that or I can grow a wider range of plants by adding hybrids to the collection. For example for me personally, true highlanders, tend to suffer and I've lost a fair few plants in the summer time, where temps do not drop enough to sustain them. Similarly lowlanders suffer/die out in the wintertime due to temperature issues. This largely leaves me with the option of growing mainly intermediate species or trying to substitute species, with the next best thing, hybrids that look as close to the species as possible. For example i've tried N. aristolochioides and it died for me in summer, N. Bellii x aristolochioides does a lot better for me.

Another point, a lot of purists won't admit, is that some select hybrids look better than species. I've heard a few growers tell me in person that they would rather a N.hirsuta or N. Chaniana or N. Khasiana over for example spectabilis x veitchii. To me eye that seems like a weak argument on just a visual basis alone.

Lastly and this obviously comes down to personal taste. When you are purchasing a species, no doubt there will be variation in color/shape and other minor differences, but ultimately you know almost exactly what you are going to get before you grow the plant out from the seedling stage. For me personally I like the idea that I don't know exactly what i'm getting, and I enjoying chancing hybrids, especially complex ones. It's a gamble and often there's no shortage of undesirable clones in the batch, but every now and again you win the lottery and get a winner, which in my opinion makes it all worthwhile. Again this comes down to personal taste, some of the hybrids that I like, others would see unfavorably.

A bit off topic, but to all the dog lovers that grow strictly species, think about what dog you could own as a pet if dogs were not selectively bred for thousands of years? I know I personally prefer a poodle that does not shed it's fur everywhere over a middle eastern wolf/husky... No accounting for taste is there

 

[Cthulhu138]

The thing that attracts me most to the plants are the traits that make each species unique unto itself. I'm not damning hybrids in anyway, I just personally prefer the pure species. It's not all about flash and flair with me, I'm one of those people who would take a nice speckled hirsuta or a khasiana (chaniana does nothing for me) over a plant like spectabilis x veitchii any day. Space is also an issue with me. I have to make choices due to the constraints of my growing area and to me, the pure species are just worth more to me in the space I have to work with. If I had infinite room, I would definitely be open to growing more hybrids. I enjoy looking at everyone's photos of their hybrids but, most are just not for me.

 

[Red Lowii]

I definitely agree and value that characteristics and the uniqueness of pure species can not be replicated through hybridizing. For example no amount of hybridizing will create the tight mouth of an N. aristolochioides, the peristomeless uppers of inermis, or the teeth associated with hamata, villosa etc...only evolution can generate these traits. Hypothetically speaking if one does not have the conditions to grow these species for whatever reason and there are no space issues I think hybrids are just as good, not just as an alternative, but as unique plants on to themselves that in my opinion deserve the same level of attention/appreciation.

Another point that I think is interesting and worth mention (slightly off topic), a few people grow their plants outdoors, mainly in south America, Hawaii, California, Asia, Sri Lanka and Australia in outdoor conditions. As has been mentioned a lot of the species in cultivation are artificially babied and pampered with simulated conditions and would not be able to survive without the associated mechanics. I personally like knowing that if I leave my plants alone for a few months and potentially a few years that they could/would grow on their own accord, I have done this before and the rain/ elements were sufficient to sustain them with minimal losses.

It's been a bit of a twisted dream of mine to just release a whole bunch of them onto some privately owned plot of land that is surrounded by nature and more favorable tropical conditions and then come back to the location years later to see how they went. I know the experiment has been attempted by others already on a small scale. For example in New Zealand some carnivorous plant varieties were planted in marshland which turned out to be quite successful and they began multiplying on their own accord, would be very interesting to try the experiment with nepenthes. I doubt they would evolve over the course of one lifetime, but maybe some of the local species of insects/plants could develop some interesting symbiotic relationship, who knows!

 

[Tanukimo]

I don't have much experience growing Nepenthes, having only grown alata successfully before, but I definitely prefer species over hybrids, not just for Nepenthes but for all carnivorous plants. I don't like not knowing what kind of plant I am getting and I know it is not true but I like to think that I am growing more "natural" plants and not something made in a greenhouse or nursery. It worries me seeing all the different hybrids available compared to the amount of species for sale online. I really hope that in the future true species can be preserved and that we will not need to try breeding hybrids to try to get back species.

 

[Red Lowii]

One thing I've always found interesting about the view point that by growing species one is growing more "natural" plants. Or that human intervention in creating these hybrids is in someway wrong or has created something artificial or unpure. I think humans like all other animals interact with the natural environment and are themselves a part of it, no matter how many artificial structures/cities we build. By creating terrariums or greenhouses or any element that assists in cultivation or by growing the plants outside of their natural geographical location, one has already done something that is "unnatural" I think it's an interesting reflection of a prevailing state of mind in humans rather than anything to do with the plants.

Another off topic example, the Asian dog or the dingo was brought to the Australian mainland via trade 5,000+ years ago. It adapted and largely causing the extinction of Australia's larger carnivorous marsupials on the mainland, but it's now seen as a native animal. Does it count as "natural" now? or has human intervention rendered it no longer "natural"?

 

[Nepenthesis]

Yeah... I remember in 2010 on Dendroboard, I was scolded for even asking about creating PDF hybrids.

Shortly after I joined TF, I read a topic about this exact same thing. Maybe someone else remembers better than I can and can find it. IIRC, it was a long discussion.

My personal opinion is that some hybrids are prettier than pure species. Just look at N. x 'Trusmadiensis' and its hybrids, or N. x 'Briggsiana' -- they're two prime examples of hybrids with interesting traits. I think hybrids are okay, but it is quite annoying not being able to find pure species. However, Nepenthes aren't grown very widespread and many people don't have access to multiple seed grown plants of the same species. Plus, two similar species may not flower at the same time. With PDFs, they will breed yearly in breeding season and they don't have to be "in flower" -- they'll just breed without much effort.

If you look at garden flowers and other tropicals (like orchids or bromeliads), you'll see that there are many more hybrids than pure species there.

There's really no way to fix this than gathering seeds, seedlings, basal shoots or cuttings from wild plants. That's greatly frowned upon, however, and there are tons of laws protecting them and their import.