What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • #21
From 2013 is "old" but it appears, not too old for your methods and skill. I have had experience with intermediate/highlander seeds that were up to 1.5 years. Perhaps most of us have with some of the old seeds from (ebay). I have had fairly good success with them personally but no experience with anything older than that. Lowlanders that i have sowed have always been at least < 6 months. I consider them "fresh" in this range because of the success i have had in sowing them. I haven't had the chance to try with anything older than that in the way of lowlanders. Thank you for sharing your experience.
 
Last edited:
  • #22
Lechenaultia,

Ah, interesting! It seems these seeds have been treated somewhat differently then we're all used to seeing. From removing the seed coat to covering the seeds. But with the more detailed information that you have done those things, and the steps you took to sowing these seeds (autoclaving the media for example) does remove a lot of the doubt in my mind. Sorry I don't have any experiences in sowing old Nepenthes seeds of any kinds to add to the conversation.

legume floating in the room, too funny. :-))

I await your updates!

Dewa mata!
 
  • #23
I'm curious, what is your reason for removing the seed coat?

I'm curious too. Do you see any benefit of doing so for TC?
I'm never able to get 100% sterilisation of Nep seeds, always have some fungus in at least a few seeds. Does removing the seed coat allow a better treatment?
 
  • #24
The seed peeling thing is very interesting, especially considering how thing and small nepenthes seed are. Perhaps this could cause the seedlings to look different upon germination, assuming they are in fact nepenthes?
 
  • #25
The seed peeling thing is very interesting, especially considering how thing and small nepenthes seed are. Perhaps this could cause the seedlings to look different upon germination, assuming they are in fact nepenthes?
I don't know too much about this, but from what I have learned, removing the seed coat should have no effect on the appearance of seedlings. Mature seeds already have full cotyledons.

It seems to me that we'll know if they're nepenthes seeds within a few weeks, because either they'll produce pitchers or they won't. Ensuring that the seedlings are nepenthes eymae would obviously be more challenging, but if they're nepenthes I see no particular reason to think that they were misidentified. The soil having been autoclaved does make it seem far less likely that these are contaminants, but I will hold out until pitchers before I'm totally confident.
 
  • #26
Things that would have been good to know at the start of this: that the seeds were altered dramatically (though in some of the photos what appears to be full Nepenthes seeds are present on the soil next to the germinating plants) and that the soil had been heat-treated. However, this still doesn't explain why these seeds are germinating with appearances so unlike any other Nepenthes (while perhaps it's a trait of the species to have such thick cotyledons and odd stems, I've germinated N. maxima seeds and that species is incredibly close to eymae which means some traits should be shared due to close ancestry, and no such luck), and it's not impossible for some seeds of other plants to survive extreme heat for extended periods of time; conditions like this are used to force germination of some.
But, as schmiggle said, the one thing that will remove all doubt about at least the genus identity of these is what the first true leaf looks like; if there is an immature pitcher present, then this will be likely the recording of the oldest Nepenthes seeds successfully germinated. If anything else appears, then we'll know they're not.
 
  • #28
Lowlanders that i have sowed have always been at least < 6 months. I consider them "fresh" in this range because of the success i have had in sowing them. I haven't had the chance to try with anything older than that in the way of lowlanders. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Dear N_CloudySkies-san,
Konnichiwa!
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences!!!
While waiting for the update02,
I am not sure it is an appropriate thing species being categorized as Lowlanders, Intermediate or Highlanders, so far as the seed viability. But, among Lowlanders, the appearance of N. northiana seed is significantly different from N. ampullaria. We probably should consider to separate N. northiana from the amp/raff/bical group. What do you think of it, N_CloudySkies-san?
I am trying to grow N. northiana from a few sourses. I feel N. northiana seed viability is a bit longer than I expected.
P3130002.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4779/40744996752_b610e57f09_o.jpg

Another N. northiana seeds I obtained in April, 2016. I sowed them in the plastic container immediately. They started germinating on May 02 in 2016. I sowed the remainder of them in vitro on April 10 in 2017. I had stored the seeds in the refrigerator, no silica gel. I did not remove the seed husk in this case. They started germinating on June 10 in 2017. Please see attached photos, you can see the seed husks.
20180313_220038.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4773/38977007600_76a87f5012_o.jpg
20180313_220040.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4782/40077396604_380199e34c_o.jpg
Although they are neglected, they still look healthy, imo.....
I took the photos on March 13 in 2018.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
Last edited:
  • #29
Both Nimbulan-san's Nepenthes seedlings and the Nepenthes seedlings in my photos are in cultivation, and not side by side.
Soil moisture level, humidity level, lighting level....etc depending on the growers. The differences caused by these things are not important for discussing or describing the ID, IMO.
I believe many great taxonomists made a mistake in youth, when they stuck to plants under cultivation conditions too much. Then they stamped indelibly on their mind as a moral.

BTW, the naked seed method is a very common technique in the horticultural world. For example, Spinach
Please go to: https://shop.takii.co.jp/CGI/shop/search/detail.cgi?item_code=ASP071
 
Last edited:
  • #30
Hello Lechenaultia,

Not sure if that categorization is appropriate either. I like it and use it as a general tool for growing and understanding but I tend to agree that we do need to go a bit deeper in the way we categorize nepenthes plants. Too much diversity with them not to do so. For this reason, I personally like the idea of putting an emphasis on seed study. I have noticed this diversity among seeds over the years. It is hard not to notice. Certainly Darwin's evolutionary forces shaped them in very unique ways for very specific reasons?

I personally think that you may find seed viability will always tend to be a bit longer than you expect, I think viability among most all nepenthes seeds is a lot longer than what we may think and have/may read. I just never imagined something like N. eymae seeds from 2013......that is incredible. I would love to see those with far better skills than I answer that question just "how old is too old". That would be a very good thing for world-wide seed banks and preservation efforts for nepenthes? Just really positive.


N. northiana warrants it's entirely own group..imo. Where it grows in nature, how it grows, what it looks like....just an amazingly unique nepenthes. Sadly, i am not good enough to grow one. For me, they are very difficult. I like the efforts you are doing in germinating those N. northiana seeds. They hardly look neglected. They look super in fact. I like the many different sources aspect of your seeds and that should make your experience really interesting with those. A huge thank you for sharing all that.
 
Last edited:
  • #31
N. northiana warrants it's entirely own group..imo. Where it grows in nature, how it grows, what it looks like....just an amazingly unique nepenthes. Sadly, i am not good enough to grow one. For me, they are very difficult. I like the efforts you are doing in germinating those N. northiana seeds. They hardly look neglected. They look super in fact. I like the many different sources aspect of your seeds and that should make your experience really interesting with those. A huge thank you for sharing all that.

Don't be so sure you can't grow one. They don't require any special treatment in cultivation compared to other lowlanders.
 
  • #33
Dear N_CloudySkies-san,
Konnichiwa!
Domo Arigatou Gozaimasu! (Thank you very much!)
I think viability among most all nepenthes seeds is a lot longer than what we may think and have/may read.

This is the theme of this thread!!!

That would be a very good thing for world-wide seed banks and preservation efforts for nepenthes? Just really positive.

exactly
We may encounter the same problem that zoos have already had. I wish that skilled botanists, skilled nurseries and skilled growers would have the concern about this matter. As I already wrote, I am quite unfamiliar with Nepenthes. I have no Nepenthes plant in any of my greenhouses. just in the incubation room or on a windowsill.

My thought for the moment,
1: the seeds should be high quality in the first place.
2: cold storage is necessary.
3: keep or control the seed moisture content (IMPORTANT)
4: inhibit propagation of bacteria and fungus
5: something I have no idea

Thank you very much again!!!

Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #35
Am I correct in saying Nepenthes are a dicotyledon? As per your pictures, there is only one cotyledon emerging, which makes it a monocotyledon. Also, there are no wings present on the seed I see?

Everything I see, and what [MENTION=9012]hcarlton[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10989]nimbulan[/MENTION] also observe, show that without a doubt these are not Nepenthes seed of any species.

[MENTION=10183]Acro[/MENTION], interesting thought! From what I have seen at https://www.nordgen.org/sgsv/index.php?app=data_unit&unit=sgsv_by_species

It appears no carnivorous species are stored in the vault unfortunately :(

I was just talking with some people the other day, perhaps to extend the shelf life of Nepenthes seed, humidity is needed?

I'm curious, what kind of Nepenthes species or other cp genus did you grow from seeds?
Considering the plant kingdom, I do not have much experience with sowing seed. Almost species (genus) I sowed, the root emerging first, except Utricularia humboldtii (seeds from Chiaki Shibata-sensei: IPS) and Utricularia nelumbifolia (seeds from Loyd Wix-san: the international Pinguicula Study Group). It reminds me of when Fernando(R.L.)-san and I observed U. humboldtii seedling (just after popping out from its transparent seed coat), while sitting down and relaxing in kotatu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFQu0Gh97OA) a couple of decades ago.
 
  • #36
I've only had experience in germinating a variety of Nepenthes and Drosera. Please give us an update on this in a month, I'm really curious as to how they'll look!
 
  • #37
Please give us an update on this in a month, I'm really curious as to how they'll look!
Dear Craigam-san,
Konnichiwa!:)
a month?
more often! Please expect, and enjoy observing them with me.
Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #38
img_1508.jpgimg_1509.jpg

Just some recently germinated lowland Nepenthes here, the first tiny pitcher should show up real soon after the inital germination. Sorry for the image quality...
 
Last edited:
  • #39
Just some recently germinated lowland Nepenthes here, the first tiny pitcher should show up real soon after the inital germination. Sorry for the image quality...

Very nice! Any details? How old were the seeds? When were they sown? When did they sprout? How old are they now? And what are they? :-O
 
  • #40
Very nice! Any details? How old were the seeds? When were they sown? When did they sprout? How old are they now? And what are they? :-O

Lets see... these little guys are supposed to be N. Suratensis according to the seller in Thailand, and seeds are from his own plants. Seeds were harvested on Jan. 3 2018 and sowed sometime around the end of January. Germination didn't really start before March, however after I placed the pot in a sealed 90+ temp container around March 2, 15+ seedlings popped up in the following week... I am not sure if it was the temperature (70 vs 90+) change or just the period of time (3-5 weeks from the seller's own experience) after they were sowed that triggered the germination... For now out of 100+ seeds 40+ have germinated, and hopefully more to come. I do suspect that a lot of the seeds lost their viability during the shipment because of the drop in temperature (Its like 85+ permanently in Thailand...) and since N. Suratensis is considered a "ultra lowlander" (together with another species with a bad reputation germinating wise: N. bicalcarata ), 40% isn't that bad. :)

I have read some growers attempt to germinate highland species in lowland condition, even grow the highland seedlings with high temp with great success.

Ah, right, the seeds are sowed on pure peat 3-4 inches under 2x32w T8 bulbs, heat is provided by a 100w aquarium heater.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top