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  • #41
Dear Jasonh-san,
Konnichiwa!:)
Nice photos and great info!
May I ask you a couple of questions?
I do suspect that a lot of the seeds lost their viability during the shipment because of the drop in temperature (Its like 85+ permanently in Thailand...) and since N. Suratensis is considered a "ultra lowlander"
1: Is it a major opinion in U.S.A.?
2: Did you make a careful selection before sowing (sort fine seeds out with care (the stereoscopic microscope ))? Or sowed all seeds you received?
Thank you very much in advance.
Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #42
Dear Jasonh-san,
Konnichiwa!:)
Nice photos and great info!
May I ask you a couple of questions?

1: Is it a major opinion in U.S.A.?
2: Did you make a careful selection before sowing (sort fine seeds out with care (the stereoscopic microscope ))? Or sowed all seeds you received?
Thank you very much in advance.
Kind regards from the Far East

Greetings Lechenaultia,

This is my very first attempt to germinate nepenthes, so don't take anything I said for granted :)

From what I have read from posts and articles, there seems to be some points of view that are more or less accepted by many:
- Shelf lives of different nepenthes species seeds are diverse
- Highlanders and hybrids can retain their viability for some time, 1+ year in some cases if stored right.
- Lowlanders might break your heart.
- Shelf lives of the seeds of the same species from different locations may vary, the warmer the original location the shorter the shelf life.
- Highlanders take longer to germinate.

I actually just sowed all the seeds without sorting. Not doing in-vitro or anything.

Hope this helps.
 
  • #43
I've been suspecting lately that the low temperatures the seeds are exposed to during international transit can have a significant impact on seed viability. I don't have enough data yet to draw any conclusions.
 
  • #44
I've been suspecting lately that the low temperatures the seeds are exposed to during international transit can have a significant impact on seed viability. I don't have enough data yet to draw any conclusions.

Could be a solid point, however it's hard to find a reputable supplier already... with that many variables and the assumed shelf life factor, the best bet is to experiment locally with a consistent supply of seeds and simulate with refrigerator etc. But again, who would like to waste a batch of fresh seeds to just prove that low temp experienced during international transit would reduce the germination rate (and lose a few buyers probably) when they can just sell them to some unwitting customers? ;)
 
  • #45
To add more difficulty to that, the temperatures that mail experiences during transit varies quite widely. There's no way to know without including electronics with the seeds to track the environmental conditions.
 
  • #46
Sorry for going off topic a bit, but just a random thought: if lowland nepenthes seeds do have an extremely short shelf life as claimed, why not transitting them with the same method as transitting pygmy drosera gemmae: wrap the seeds with wet tissue paper. I do realize a fundamental difference between seeds and modified leaves, however since the germination shouldn't take place at least a few weeks after regular sowing (the lower-than-favorable but not freezing temperature during shipment should extend the time by a bit?), could it be a way to retain some viability of the seeds? You can see the D. Roseana gemmae already started developing some roots during the 3 week shipment.
IMG_1343.jpg
 
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  • #47
Dear Jasonh-san,
Konnichiwa!:D
Thank you very much.
Please see attached photos.
20180322_210626.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/795/40060000815_8dbfaec24b_o.jpg
20180322_210626 (2).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4786/40060000855_437967776a_o.jpg
Nepenthes suratensis seeds

Your seeds and my seeds look the same? Your previous post reminded me of the N. suratensis seeds that I stored in refrigerator, 8 months old. I made a careful selection in very end of July 2017. I was able to pick only 31 seeds out. The qualities look various. I asked myself a question:"Should I sow them in vitro or a plastic container?" Then, I had totally forgotten it.
Well, what shall I do.... a bit small amount to do something... 8 months old......

Please see attached photos.
20180322_210626 (3).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4776/26081382867_4322bb7639_o.jpg
20180322_210627.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/784/26081382517_885d597baf_o.jpg
Nepenthes seeds: ampullaria, suratensis, northiana and eymae

N. suratensis seed resembles, if anything, N. northiana seed.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #48
Greetings Lechenaultia,

8 months?:0o: I don't know, maybe just sow it and hope for the best? Maybe treat the seeds with some GA3 solution? Anyways, here is the seeds I recieved months ago. By no means could I identify if the seeds are the right species, so...
IMG_1519.jpg

You got quite a seed collection, nice macro photography :D
 
  • #49
Greetings Lechenaultia,

8 months?:0o: I don't know, maybe just sow it and hope for the best? Maybe treat the seeds with some GA3 solution? Anyways, here is the seeds I recieved months ago. By no means could I identify if the seeds are the right species, so...
View attachment 4010

You got quite a seed collection, nice macro photography :D
Dear Jasonh-san,
Konnichiwa!
Thank you very much for your photo. Your seeds resemble neither the amp/raff/bical group nor N. eymae.
Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #52
How long does the cold storage damage Nepenthes seeds?

Konnichiwa!
While waiting for the update04,
I took all photos on March 28 in 2018.
I have been confused about the opinion that is the cold storage damages Nepenthes seeds.
The other experiences that contradict this opinion, though much shorter period than N. eymae (storage for 5 years in refrigerator).

I sowed N. aff. truncata seeds in a plastic container in August 2016, though they (plants) still have been neglected in the plastic container. I stored the remainder of the seeds into the refrigerator, with no silica gel. I sowed them in vitro on March 6 in 2017 (> 6 months old). I transplanted them once. Please see attached photos.
20180328_212300 (6).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/874/41028740122_7eb3b0657e_o.jpg
N. aff. truncata in vitro(from the seeds stored for > 6 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (9).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/865/41028739822_86a083891c_o.jpg
N. aff. truncata in vitro (from the seeds stored for > 6 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (10).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/821/41028739702_6f42d4a997_o.jpg
N. aff. truncata in vitro (from the seeds stored for > 6 months in refrigerator)

I got N. peltata seeds from my friend on March 28 in 2017. I sowed almost N. peltata seeds in vitro on March 30 in 2017. Please see attached photos
20180328_212300 (7).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/873/41028740072_ea67a3a31d_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata in vitro

20180328_212300 (8).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/888/41028739912_11121c2982_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata in vitro

20180328_212300 (11).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/789/41028739732_95dd976908_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata in vitro

The seed appearance resembled, if anything, N. northiana & N. suratensis. Please see attached photo
20180328_212300 (12).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/41028739532_f411c88f3f_o.jpg
The seed husk of N. peltata.

I stored the remainder of seeds (very small numbers) into the refrigerator, with no silica gel. I sowed them in the plastic container on February 9 in 2018 (10 months old, stored for 10 months in refrigerator). Please see attached photos.
20180328_212300.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/817/41028739562_667cfd052a_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata (from the seeds stored for 10 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (4).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/806/41028740302_82e999910b_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata (from the seeds stored for 10 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (5).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/887/41028740282_096336945e_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata (from the seeds stored for 10 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (2).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/879/41028740592_9cb6c27012_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata (from the seeds stored for 10 months in refrigerator)

20180328_212300 (3).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/887/41028740372_2dd9cbeb43_o.jpg
Nepenthes peltata (from the seeds stored for 10 months in refrigerator)

My question is “How long does the cold storage damage Nepenthes seeds?”.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #53
I am going to try this naked seeds thing.
 
  • #54
I've been suspecting lately that the low temperatures the seeds are exposed to during international transit can have a significant impact on seed viability. I don't have enough data yet to draw any conclusions.
Dear Nimbulan-san,
Konnichiwa!
This video is one example of handling mail in my country.
The seeds might occasionally be over-pressed or be slightly crushed. It might rarely happen because Nepenthes seeds are small. I'm not sure.
How are mails (letters or letter-sized envelopes) handled in the United States?
Kind regards from the Far East
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUFvnNWjsAw
 
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  • #55
I'm sure mail's handled pretty much the same way here. I've never seen any signs of physical damage to mailed Nepenthes seeds though, like I have with Sarracenia or Dionaea.
 
  • #56
I'm sure mail's handled pretty much the same way here. I've never seen any signs of physical damage to mailed Nepenthes seeds though, like I have with Sarracenia or Dionaea.
Dear Nimbulan-san,
Konnichiwa!:)
Thank you very much for your reply.
I wrote "I'm not sure.". But I have occasionally had bad experiences. I do not know whether they were caused by the sort machine of the post office.
I make a careful selection using the stereoscopic microscope when I got Nepenthes seeds.
The physical damages of the amp/raff/bical group are hardly distinguishable. Or they might have been unharmed. I realize only after removing the seed husks.
But the cases of the intermediate/highland species, I have found occasionally 1/2 or less of the thickness of the seeds. The damages seemed to be crushed by rollers.
Thank you very much again.
Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #57
Update 04

Konnichiwa!
If you agree to my claim that these seedlings are Nepenthes, please share your experiences or your opinion about "How old is too old?". I think nobody denies your experience even if it would be contrary to common belief. At least I never deny your experience.
Kind regards from the Far East

I took all photos on April 02 in 2018.
20180402_220306 (1).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/26310786907_fe840d5a08_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180402_220306 (2).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/868/40287402435_52c573ed6b_b.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180402_220306 (3).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/888/26310786417_612b01e834_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180402_220306 (4).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/794/40287402395_b48fe5791d_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180402_220306 (5).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/867/40287402035_208c10a59c_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180402_220306 (6).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/886/26310786067_9760377dd0_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae (from the seeds stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
 
  • #58
It's late, and I'm sleepy, so I may not be thinking clearly but . . .
Could it be that old seedlings don't have the strength to push through their seed hull? And when stripped of their seed hull, their energy is focused on growth instead of the struggle to break free?
 
  • #59
It's late, and I'm sleepy, so I may not be thinking clearly but . . .
Could it be that old seedlings don't have the strength to push through their seed hull? And when stripped of their seed hull, their energy is focused on growth instead of the struggle to break free?
Dear Acro-san,
Konnichiwa!
It is nice to hear from you. Your thought is one of my conjectures, though it is not a reason why I started to remove the Nepenthes seed husk.

But one reason is not conjecture. Simple comparison cannot be made, but please reread this thread.
The period until germinating
5 years old N. eymae seeds (removed the seed husks): approximately 20 days
1 year old N. northiana seeds (not removed the seed husks): 60 days
An ordinary phenomenon by this naked seed method. This is one of the answers for Emc2-san's post. I hope I can reply his other question in the future.
I'm curious too. Do you see any benefit of doing so for TC?
I'm never able to get 100% sterilisation of Nep seeds, always have some fungus in at least a few seeds. Does removing the seed coat allow a better treatment?

It is too ridiculous if my conjectures are called the hypotheses. For example,
Considering the habitat of N. northiana, Their seed dispersals are difficult. I think they are the anemochore. The seeds will be scattered because of the wind that rises along the precipice. The N. northiana seeds do not look like the structure that can be dispersed in the distance compared with the amp/raff/bical group. The places are not always the suitable environment even if they can stick to the precipice fortunately. A lot of seeds should wait patiently for the following wind (or rain). When a patient seed moves to another place, How does the seed judge whether it is suitable or not there? The place might be the temporary wet place.
There might be the peculiar living beings at the perpetual wet place. Tiny creature like snails or bugs might bite the Nepenthes seed husk. The particular fungi or bacterias might decompose the Nepenthes seed husk. It might induce germination.
You might think I am crazy.....

I call what I removed the Nepenthes seed husk. Some members on TF call it the Nepenthes seed coat. I am not familiar with the technical terms. The membrane that I provisionally call it the seed coat still wraps the actual seed, except the one end where the root will be emerging. It still seems to protect the seed.
I illustrate it by using the peanut though it is improper.
20180404_212620(1).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/879/40334770635_83cfc721f7_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae: the part that put a red ring around, the membrane doesn't exist originally there.

20180404_224410(2).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/819/41187203172_429b0ef693_o.jpg
Peanut: the part that put a red ring around, I artificially removed the coat.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #60
Removing seed coat/husk by hand for Nepenthes and small seeds is a poor technique. It might damage embryo. You can do it for fun but it's not the proper way. Soak seeds in warm water for 4 hours before planting; coat will be soften, seed will wake up and swell. It's a commercial way to deal with billion seeds every year. Try and you will see the big different. :-O
 
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