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  • #61
Removing seed coat/husk by hand for Nepenthes and small seeds is a poor technique. It might damage embryo. You can do it for fun but it's not the proper way. Soak seeds in warm water for 4 hours before planting; coat will be soften, seed will wake up and swell. It's a commercial way to deal with billion seeds every year. Try and you will see the big different. :-O
WOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
GREAT INFORMATION!!!!!
Dear Flasker-san,
Konnichiwa!
How many degrees is it (for Nepenthes seeds)? Could you please share some photos?
I never dealt with billion seeds! But it seems a very good way to deal with 10 seeds. I mean this is with universal usage!!!

Personally, it is not difficult to remove Nepenthes seed husk.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #62
Hey flasker, are you referring to treating nepenthes seeds or all seeds in general?

Lechenaultia, thanks for keeping us updated, its definitely quite an interesting topic.
 
  • #63
Use warm not hot water (around 45 C is good enough). Google for seed germination research for more interesting information which may use for C.P. seeds.
 

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  • #64
seed will wake up and swell.

Dear Flasker-san,
Konnichiwa!
I have never succeeded from the shrunken Nepenthes seeds. The N. eymae seeds, stored for 5 years in the refrigerator, are still swelled (before soaked in any liquid). Your method is superior!

Use warm not hot water (around 45 C is good enough).

Congratulations! How old were the seeds? what are they?

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #65
Dr. Jan Schlauer answered my question.

Konnichiwa!

Jan-san (Dr. Jan Schlauer), who has been a good friend of mine since I joined the cp-listserve in 1994, answered my question.
......
Regarding the seed coat, this is the commonly used term. The external form and the mechanical properties of the seed are defined by the outer layer that is called testa. Additionally the embryo is included in the inner (protective) layer that is called tegmen and is a thin membranous peel in Nepenthes. Other seeds have endosperm that additionally surrounds the embryo, but in Nepenthes the endosperm is not well developed or lacking whatsoever.
......

Kind regards from the Far East

I call what I removed the Nepenthes seed husk. Some members on TF call it the Nepenthes seed coat. I am not familiar with the technical terms. The membrane that I provisionally call it the seed coat still wraps the actual seed, except the one end where the root will be emerging. It still seems to protect the seed.
I illustrate it by using the peanut though it is improper.
View attachment 4082
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/879/40334770635_83cfc721f7_o.jpg
Nepenthes eymae: the part that put a red ring around, the membrane doesn't exist originally there.
View attachment 4083
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/819/41187203172_429b0ef693_o.jpg
Peanut: the part that put a red ring around, I artificially removed the coat.
 
  • #66
It's late, and I'm sleepy, so I may not be thinking clearly but . . .
Could it be that old seedlings don't have the strength to push through their seed hull? And when stripped of their seed hull, their energy is focused on growth instead of the struggle to break free?
Dear Acro-san,
Konnichiwa!
20180306_204911.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4696/40651794171_422f113456_o.jpg
I took the photo on March 06 in 2018.
After I took the above photo, I sowed these seeds. It seems the old seedlings have the strength to push through their seed husk.

I took the following photos on April 12 in 2018.
20180412_224625 (1).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/820/39600467570_7925b77101_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180412_224625 (2).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/863/41366992492_4869e377b6_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

P4120005copy.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/883/41368000212_11ce733f42_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

Though I don't understand the conditions for the appropriate storage of the Nepenthes seeds, it seems viability among Nepenthes seeds is a lot longer than what we may think and have/may read, as N_CloudySkies-san said.

Hello Lechenaultia,
I personally think that you may find seed viability will always tend to be a bit longer than you expect, I think viability among most all nepenthes seeds is a lot longer than what we may think and have/may read. I just never imagined something like N. eymae seeds from 2013......that is incredible. I would love to see those with far better skills than I answer that question just "how old is too old". That would be a very good thing for world-wide seed banks and preservation efforts for nepenthes? Just really positive.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #67
Have the tentative pitchers grown at all? Do we have any recent pictures? I really want to know if these are actually nepenthes.
 
  • #68
Have the tentative pitchers grown at all? Do we have any recent pictures? I really want to know if these are actually nepenthes.
Dear Schmiggle-san,
Konnichiwa!
Please see the photos again.
20180412_224625 (7).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/39608342430_35967bf4e3_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
20180412_224625 (6).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/790/40521611175_de5f30632e_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #69
Update 05

Update 05
I took the photos on April 12 in 2018.
20180412_224625 (3).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/884/41374612102_6e036af679_b.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
20180412_224625 (4).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/799/41417178881_368f0ba656_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
20180412_224625 (5).jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/882/27545695098_2690c89d6b_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
 
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  • #70
Well, if these aren't nepenthes then they're something truly bizarre.
 
  • #71
Update 06

Update 06
I took the photos on May 16 in 2018.

20180516_233528.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/960/28277923428_8c0ef10887_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180516_233607.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/979/42103678682_261df1233d_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180516_233333.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/948/42150546821_28b6986ece_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180516_233429.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/958/27279478177_89afaefd24_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

20180516_233639.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/973/28277923258_ba388aab3b_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)
 
  • #72
Update 06
I took the photos on May 16 in 2018.

View attachment 4162
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/960/28277923428_8c0ef10887_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

View attachment 4163
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/979/42103678682_261df1233d_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

View attachment 4164
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/948/42150546821_28b6986ece_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

View attachment 4165
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/958/27279478177_89afaefd24_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

View attachment 4166
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/973/28277923258_ba388aab3b_o.jpg
The germination from 5 years old Nepenthes eymae seeds (stored for 5 years in refrigerator)

Incredible [emoji1317][emoji1319]

I have often pondered the idea of removing the seed coat from Nepenthes seed as well! This only makes me want to try more!
Though treating your seeds with GA3 seems to help a lot as well, I am old school and sow my seeds intact on milled sphagnum.
I have had seed as old as 1 year sprout, never tried.
I feel there are several people here who owe you an apology for lashing and attacking without asking and jumping to conclusions. Assumption makes an *** of all of us.

Thank you for the insight you have provided in this thread!

Here is one of my most promising batches of seed right now, Nepenthes edwardsiana.
Seed took 3 weeks to begin sprouting from time of sowing(March 1 2018), and were approximately 2 months old by the time I received them from a friend of mine.
Last Wednesday they received their first maxsea feeding.

e9cf56c51e6af3823ccbe9979c4d0bf5.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #73
Dear SirKristoff-san,

Konnichiwa!

Thank you very much for your reply!

Though treating your seeds with GA3 seems to help a lot as well, I am old school and sow my seeds intact on milled sphagnum.

I might post something about it in the future.

It's a great news that you have N. edwardsiana seedlings. I have a few of batches of seedlings. One of them, I sowed the seeds on Feb 24 in 2018. Please see attached photos.
20180517_1.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/975/41449367704_5189552615_o.jpg
20180517_2.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/906/42123997232_7d0bb4087e_o.jpg
N. edwardsiana seedling(s). I took the photos on May 17 in 2018.

I hope you can post the progress of your seedlings with the growing tips in your thread. I would like to refer to your Nepenthes edwardsiana growing techniques.
I have sown Nepenthes seeds in recent years. But almost seedlings have been neglected in the plastic containers or in vitro. I have transplanted some seedlings to Oasis foam on a whim. But almost all are still in the plastic containers. I would like to grow them. There is a lot I can learn from you.

20180517_3.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/972/27298737287_37c5a5e218_o.jpg
small plants of N. rafflesiana x ampullaria (approximately one year after transplanting from the plastic container (the below photos).
I took the photo on May 17 in 2018

20180517_4.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/826/41449367484_640111e6a0_o.jpg
small plants of N. Viking x ampullaria (approximately one year after transplanting from the plastic container)
I took the photo on May 17 in 2018

20180517_5.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/972/42123996882_d0ea7f4bd2_o.jpg
20180517_6.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/825/41449367294_bee4052eda_o.jpg
tiny seedlings of N. rafflesiana x ampullaria (but 18 months old seedlings: I sowed the seeds on Nov. 6 in 2016. definitely neglected!!!)
I took the photos on May 17 in 2018

Kind regard from the Far East
 
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  • #74
Incredible germination there man! Are all of these sprouted removing the seed coat from the embryo?
I have several batches of seedlings going currently of different species and hybrids but I do not get the germination you do, at least like the raff x amp you posted, those are incredible!

When sowing seeds in vitro with a friend of mine who does TC we treat the seed with GA3 (Gibberellic Acid) have you tried this in vitro or in vivo in your conditions??

Do you place your seed sewn in vivo vs vitro under lights or allow them to have a short dark period before germination? There are several different methods people have had success with, and in some cases more success/higher germ rates using the dark period method.

There is still so much to learn about Nepenthes, I am curious to how you remove your seed coat! If you would be so kind as to give me a tutorial I would be quite thankful, as I would like to try it myself!

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #75
Dear SirKristoff-san,

Konnichiwa!
Incredible germination there man! Are all of these sprouted removing the seed coat from the embryo?
No, I did not remove the seed husks. The seeds were very fresh and were high quality. I obtained the seeds from the skilled Nepenthes grower. Unfortunately, I do not know mass treatment method. (It might be feasible by using some kind of enzyme.) I can process only 200-250 seeds without any breaks.

When sowing seeds in vitro with a friend of mine who does TC we treat the seed with GA3 (Gibberellic Acid) have you tried this in vitro or in vivo in your conditions??
I use the pretreatment liquid before sowing seeds, regardless of seed with husk or seed without husk. I would decline to write the recipe here for the moment. I maybe write later. I do not prove the effect of the liquid on Nepenthes seeds yet. I do not want any kind of riot in this thread any more. If you would like to know, I send the cocktail recipe to you (PM). But I cannot guarantee your success.

Do you place your seed sewn in vivo vs vitro under lights or allow them to have a short dark period before germination? There are several different methods people have had success with, and in some cases more success/higher germ rates using the dark period method.
I place the plastic containers (or the test tubes) in dark condition for 7-10 days at the beginning.

There is still so much to learn about Nepenthes, I am curious to how you remove your seed coat! If you would be so kind as to give me a tutorial I would be quite thankful, as I would like to try it myself!
It is beyond my English skill's ability. When I obtain a USB camera that can attach the stereoscopic microscope, I might make a movie (tutorial). I would send the YouTube link to you. But I believe you can do it and will get used to doing it soon without my explanation, if you have good tweezers, a needle and the stereoscopic microscope.
Please see attached photo again.
20180306_204911.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4696/40651794171_422f113456_o.jpg
The paper is not dry. The seeds were between wet papers for 10 minutes. If you use GA3 solution for the pretreatment, Please wet the paper with the GA solution.

Kind regards from the Far East
 
  • #76
Since this is undoubtedly the oldest Nepenthes seed I have ever seen confirmed germinating, this begs a new question: is it a trait that might be found among a wide spectrum of Nepenthes species, or only certain lineages? N. eymae being a relative of N. maxima is among those adapted to regions that can have rather varying climate conditions across their range, perhaps holds a trait permitting seeds to remain viable but dormant for long periods waiting for the right conditions. I doubt many lowland species would be similar, growing in constant conditions suitable for germination, but perhaps this is something found readily in species like the Indochinese pyrophytes, or madagascariensis and pervillei.
 
  • #77
Since this is undoubtedly the oldest Nepenthes seed I have ever seen confirmed germinating, this begs a new question: is it a trait that might be found among a wide spectrum of Nepenthes species, or only certain lineages? N. eymae being a relative of N. maxima is among those adapted to regions that can have rather varying climate conditions across their range, perhaps holds a trait permitting seeds to remain viable but dormant for long periods waiting for the right conditions. I doubt many lowland species would be similar, growing in constant conditions suitable for germination, but perhaps this is something found readily in species like the Indochinese pyrophytes, or madagascariensis and pervillei.

I know that N. pervillei and N. vieillardii seeds can last a long time, and have heard about N. sanguinea storing well too. There really isn't much information out there.
 
  • #78
My thought for the moment,
1: the seeds should be high quality in the first place.
2: cold storage is necessary.
3: keep or control the seed moisture content (IMPORTANT)
4: inhibit propagation of bacteria and fungus
5: something I have no idea

Thank you very much again!!!

Kind regards from the Far East

Greetings Lechenaultia,
Since this has become a ten page thread, I might have missed the one particular post of yours, but could you elaborate point 3: "keep or control the seed moisture content " ? How do you control the moisture of nepenthes seeds in your refrigerator. in comparison to drosera seeds or sort of cold stratification like sarracenia seeds?
BTW your PM option seems to be disabled. Again congrats on your achievement and thank you for the continuous contribution.
 
  • #79
Dear Jasonh-san,

Konnichiwa!:)

Thank you very much for your reply!

BTW your PM option seems to be disabled.

Oops! I completely forgot about my settings. I will change it soon.

Since this has become a ten page thread, I might have missed the one particular post of yours, but could you elaborate point 3: "keep or control the seed moisture content " ? How do you control the moisture of nepenthes seeds in your refrigerator. in comparison to drosera seeds or sort of cold stratification like sarracenia seeds?

My thought is the unfounded conjecture.
I store many kind of seeds with silica gel. I store seeds with silica gel in plastic packets or sealed plastic containers. Especially Australian species (including non-cp). Regarding cps, I have succeeded to store Byblis seeds for ten years with silica gel.
Please go to: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/inde...a-‘carson-river-blackish-maroon-zigzag-stem’/
(I have created several threads to be related to Byblis on the forum. please see them if you are interested in Byblis)

I can't recollect my motive, but I have always stored all Nepenthes seeds without silica gel in my refrigerator. My friend sent Nepenthes eymae seeds to me using the envelope that the inside of it was made of bubble wrap. In the refrigerator, the envelope has not been sealed up completely. However the seeds seemed to be saved from the drying. I have never succeeded in the germination from the shriveled Nepenthes seeds (actual seed inside the husk).

In the same post, I wrote:
Dear N_CloudySkies-san,
We may encounter the same problem that zoos have already had. I wish that skilled botanists, skilled nurseries and skilled growers would have the concern about this matter.

I meant "How to avoid the inbreeding depression".
From my experience of the Byblis breeding programs, I was made acutely aware of the inbreeding depression in the allogamous plant. How quickly to appear (in a few generations)!
Almost Byblis species (except many of B. liniflora variations) are the allogamous plants. Almost Byblis aff. filifolia species I selected my Byblis breeding programs with are the complete allogamous plants.
Nepenthes is a dioecious species that is the benchmark for a complete allogamous plant. Of course I know Nepenthes is the perennial plant. The vegetative propagation is easy basically.
However when we realize the importance of the sexual reproduction and carry out it. I believe we will encounter the inbreeding depression in the cultivated Nepenthes plants in our child or grandchild's generations (I hope some of them will be interested in Nepenthes).

Kind regards from the Far East
 
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  • #80
How to remove Nepenthes seed husk (testa) in the most elemental fashion way.

There is still so much to learn about Nepenthes, I am curious to how you remove your seed coat! If you would be so kind as to give me a tutorial I would be quite thankful, as I would like to try it myself!

Dear SirKristoff-san,


Konnichiwa!

I have not yet obtained any USB camera for my microscope. I have been notorious for being clumsy since I was a child. In fact I have never met any person, who is clumsier than me. They used to say mumble such as "You have two left hands!" "Your fingers are all thumbs!”. They call me all sorts of names under the sun. I have to admit, they, all people around me, are cleaver with their fingers.
The stereoscopic microscope of mine is not trinocular, but a binocular one. A cell phone was attached to the left eyepiece (ocular lens). Consequently I was looking the objects through the right eyepiece with my left eye. Thus the operation was a clumsiest manual fashion of this clumsy guy. Therefore, the process can be done smarter and speedier by anyone, no matter how clumsy he/she is.
Until someone discloses much better method, please use it as reference, if you are interested in. But then again, the removing Nepenthes seed husk is not a point, the important thing is how to get better germination from old Nepenthes seeds. As I wrote, it is a primitive manner. I believe it is not the only alternative seeding method of preparing for getting seedlings from old Nepenthes seeds or moldy ones.

Kind regards from the Far East

 
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