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Hybrids you would like to see!

  • #21
I have strong suspicions that most of the suggested hybrids would be very disappointing, if not plain ugly. Remember, few appealing traits come through strongly in hybrids. The only fairly consistent traits are veitchii's peristome, ampullaria's peristome, truncata's size and thorelii's (or what is commonly called that) red colouring. I know there has been much excitement about making hybrids with hamata, but the few hamata hybrids I've seen to date have been real duds.

Also remember that the more complex a hybrid is, generally the more nondescript it will be. Further, crosses between radically different plants can produce hideous results, if you've ever seen the x Tiveyi x aristolochioides hybrid you know what I'm talking about.

Hamish
 
  • #22
Absolutely. Crossing two vastly different species frequently results in something ugly and distorted, lacking the distinctive traits of either. Breeding along certain lines will give positive results. Some complex hybrids can be distinctive, but it depends greatly on the cultivars used. I would also breed highland to lowland, because the resulting offspring usually exhibit great hybrid vigor, tolerating hot and cold extremes. I would like to see crosses like (rafflesiana x burbidgeae), or 'improve' on nature and remake hookeriana using red ampullaria x dark colored rafflesiana, for impressive size:(rajah x northiana), or (rajah x truncata) would be excellent.
Also, breeding pure species using selected clones could be very interesting. Look at what's already been done with thorelii. By breeding select clones of thorelii, attractive, smallish growing, intensely colored plants could be produced in only a few generations. Imagine what could be done with other species.
Anyway, my two cents worth...

Trent
 
  • #23
While I agree that it is easy to make a hodge podge of hybrids that are indistinct and hard to tell apart. I also think that it is premature to judge many of the new hybrids coming to market using some of the exotic looking species. Many will not show their true form until reasonably large and mature. In some cases they may change considerably when they finally start making upper pitchers. Keep in mind that they are also laying the groundwork for future crosses, which may enhance and bring out some of the 'lost' features.

Tony
 
  • #24
I think 'Predator' was definitely a worthwhile cross. I would like to see (aristo x hookeriana) to retain the bulbous quality and the spotting...plus, it would grow in Florida
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Trent
 
  • #25
I agree, particularly with Trent's comments. There are some amazing hybrids around, and interesting things can be done with thoughtful, planned breeding, as it does anywhere in the plant world. I was just trying to inject some reason into the debate that pointing out that most random hybridisation is not particularly appealing, and even some purposeful stuff isn't either.

But in all thise talk of hybridisation, I fear loss of focus on the issues surrounding species. Take aristolochioides. There have been a couple of pretty hybrids made with it. Not stunning, but quite pretty, certainly nowhere near as beautiful as the original species. Aristo comes from a very limited area and is highly endangered in the wild. There are reports that several months ago, an entire stand of them was dug up by a collector. They are no longer found at that locality. The importance of propagating the species by seed becomes critical as these species disappear from the wild, as genetic variability is the key to survival as a species. Most Nepenthes come from Indonesia and Malaysia where illegal logging and land clearing is rife, and many have an uncertain future. Some species and varieties have almost certainly been lost. If you look at veitchii, is has many different forms from different localities. Some of these are now extinct in the wild. Further, varieties grown in cultivation are often not identified as being from a certain location, or vaguely identified. I've got plenty of veitchii grown from seed, but most of them are not pure wild variants, they're crosses of different forms. We could end up with plenty of veitchii in cultivation, with little of it being true to what once grew in the wild.

Anyway, hybrids can be fun, and there challenges in growing pure species in a dioecious genus which has been mass propagated by tissue culture, but I think we need to keep these issues in mind. Sorry for being a bore
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Hamish
 
  • #26
Hehe
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I didnt intend this to be taken seriously, its just fantasy fodder
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I thought it could be fun to see what other ppl's imagination comes up with :p
Im mostly a pure-breed guy myself, but in my head Ive come up with some pretty far-out stuff...
Most of them would indeed likely look quite dull, but the point was what they COULD look like, not what they would
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Its all good fun
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/Quensel
 
  • #27
Trying not to get too off topic here since it is a thread about your dream cross.. Something very different than maintaining various populations of species.

True alot of new hybrids may lack what one hoped for when making the cross but when a new plant never used in hybridizing flowers all your first hybrids are speculation. You can only learn from them as their dominant genetic traits become apparent, so that future crosses will hopefully yield more promising results. One must also keep in mind what is appealing and what is not. A plant considered unappealing by one person may be very appealing to another. So how do you judge then if it is a worthwhile hybrid?


BTW.. I like toothy plants but I think it would be neat to see something way out like N. platychila x N. burbidgeae

Tony
 
  • #28
Tony,
Do you know if the N. x Predator ever gets the teeth of the N. hamata?

Capslock
 
  • #29
The truncata x hamata hybrid is only new and the plants around are little more than seedlings, so it's hard to say what it will look like. Hamata starts showing its teeth very early on, and the truncata x hamata plants that I've seen just have bumps on the peristome. It may be that the lower pitchers may not be that spectacular, but there's hope that the upper pitchers might have noticeable teeth due to the teeth on hamata peristomes being so exaggerated. Only time will tell.
 
  • #30
I would also like to add my 10 cents on this topic:

Let's not forget that some species ie, hurrelliana may have arisen from the cross of two very well known species ie, veitchii X fusca. there is no doubt that this is a beautiful plant.

On the other hand, there are some species which are not particularly attractive to me. ie, alata, tobaica and couple of others. The problem is that when some of us hear the word species, we are immediately biased to like "the plant even though it is not very attractive", but when we hear the word "hybrid" no matter how beautiful it may be, some of us tend to back away and not pay enough attention to the natural beauty that some of these plants may have.

In other words, i agree that there are ugly hybrids, but i also agree that there are few ugly species.

Gus
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  • #31
I wouldn't say that hybrids are unattractive, some of them are spectacular and I grow a few myself, and make a few myself. I also grow species I don't think are terribly attractive (like the ones Gus cited) because they are species and deserve to be grown. It's all about balance.

Hybrids are a great way of introducing people who would not otherwise grow Nepenthes, and certainly an easy way for kids to be introduced to them, which is evident by the number of young'uns on this and other fora. They have their place, but I'm just saying even "boring" species like hirsuta need conservation.

As for hurrelliana, the debate about its origins is something I'll leave to Charles Clarke who I know has a view on that one. If you've ever seen it in the flesh, it's the hairiest Nepenthes by a mile, and is as unique as any other species.
 
  • #32
Hi Hamish:

One thing about hurrelliana, hybrid or not, i want some

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Gus
 
  • #33
Well mine won't be big enough for cuttings for years yet...
 
  • #34
Gus makes a good point concerning the old adage "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Seems to me some interesting guidelines for Nepenthes breeding have been brought up here, both for hybrids and continuation of species in cultivation.

Tony, it seems to me the 'Predator' hybrid is showing a peristome resembling edwardsiana-having pronounced ridges or ribs. Perhaps some cultivars will show a more talon-like, inwardly pointing ridge.

Trent
 
  • #35
Trent/Caps appears to be some fine teeth on the inside edge at this point with some raised ribs. The interesting thing is the width at this stage. I am guessing the teeth normal for N. hamata have been connected to each other and are producing this wide peristome. I don't think we are seeing much from the N. truncata yet. Typically N. truncata takes a while to exert it's flairing peristome. I would expect that teeth inside the pitcher will be limited but I think they will look really neat with a flairing ribbed peristome.

Tony
 
  • #36
Oz for oz you have to mention merrilliana X rajah, may not be aesthetically beautiful but a monster of a pitcher. Has this been done? I would think but I have not seen or heard of it. Or perhaps a mutt like a cross of all the tubby flaired peristome pitchers.

Joe
 
  • #37
Sometimes the parents produce unpredictable things. I asked Geoff Mansell about which hybrids are huge, and he said anything crossed with (northiana x veitchii). Both parents are spectacular looking, but I have never heard of them talked in the "biggest pitchers" category with the likes of rajah, truncata and merriliana. But hybrids with this cross are giant.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #38
Also, the size will vary even within the grex. I have seen pitchers on a plant of N. bellii x veitchii that were huge, much larger than any veitchii I've ever seen. It looked like what you would expect from N. merrilliana x veitchii. The dwarf characteristics of the bellii were totally absent. Talk about unpredictable!

Trent
 
  • #39
Hi all

Hamish:

Could you please show us a picture of your hurrelliana?. I'd bet it would be a beautiful plant no matter how small it is!

Joe: If you are looking for rare hybrids, please contact exotica plants!.

Gus
 
  • #40
Trent, you bring up a really interesting topic and it's true that you get some startling results from small species like that. The bellii/merrilliana/ventricosa/sibuyanensis complex is interesting because they appear to be so closely related. Sibuyanensis hybrids are like lsrger but identical versions of their ventricosa counterparts. Bellii may discovered the "merrilliana within" when hybridised. Genetics are intriguing.

Gus, they're still very small seedlings at the moment, so not overly distinguishable from any other species, but I'll try to get hold of a decent digital camera and see what I can do. The one I have is lousy for close-ups or pictures of small things. My wonderful SLR camera that cost me a small fortune has gone missing, I have a horrible feeling I left it on a ferry last time I played tourist guide.
 
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