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Awesome hibrid idea!

  • #41
Pervillei is different because it is not cross fertile with other Nepenthes species. It also has morphological differences compared with other Nepenthes species, particularly in relation to its flowers and seed.

Cross genus fertility does not exist, as far as I'm aware.

What constitutes a species is an interesting discussion. There is a parrot that is found all along the east coast of Australia (which is, lengthwise, a phenomenal distance). The colouring changes gradually as you go from north to south. However, the northern parrots can interbreed with the ones from the central region, the ones from the central region can interbreed with both northern and southern forms, but the northern and southern forms cannot breed with each other.
 
  • #42
A quick look at the orchid world and you will find that intergeneric hybrids are all over the place. With some complex hybrids having 4 or 5 different genera represented.
 
  • #43
Very true, although classification of orchids into genera is a similar thing to classifying Nepenthes into species.... I have a feeling that each lots of plant nerds in the past created classifications according to their own predilictions.
 
  • #44
Sorry, I should call them botanists
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  • #45
You should call me, i'm sorry, not that far yet, i mean them, botanists.

Anyway, so Pervilli can't interbreed with other neps? Or is it like the chicken and the other bird a while back, where they can breed but the little ones are sterile.

Even though the offspring might be infertile between drosera and Nepenthes (hypothetically) it would be pretty interesting.

back to the original subject here...

I think a Rajah x Macrophylla would create Gigantic pitchers, cross that with, say, a hybrid between truncata and merrilliana, and you have and extreemly tolerant plant. As an added bonus, you have incredibly large pitchers. And if the peristome of Macrophylla survives all that hybridizing, it will have a neat peristome too.
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Wow, that was a pretty good idea for thinking it up in about a second...

Dave
 
  • #46
There is actually a natural hybrid between rajah and villosa. It is quite nice, but not as attractive as either parent species. The peristome is a compromise between the rajah and the villosa, and size is much the same as rajah. IMO, a hybrid between rajah and macrophylla would probably be even less impressive, as macrophylla has the least pronounced peristome teeth of villosa, macrophylla and edwardsiana. The rajah x villosa hybrid is also known as x kinabaluensis. Some pictures can be seen at:

http://www.edit.ne.jp/~teroosa/Nepenthes/N_kinabaluensis.html

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~dvcammen/Borneo/nepenthes3.htm - the picture titled "Mount Kinabalu, N. villosa ( or maybe N. x kinabaluensis, a natural hybrid)" - it is kinabaluensis, as is the one under it.

http://www.wildsidephotography.ca/nepenthes.html
 
  • #47
Botanists have told me that they live in a publish or perish world and there are "lumpers" and "splitters".  These days there are more botanists publishing more things in more journals than at any time before, so when one of them gets their teeth into our beloved plants you can expect changes, whether or not they are justified.

Having said that, we are fortunate to have some good guys in this field who are publishing. Charles Clarke for example is an ecologist and has scant patience for some of the nit-picking arguments that go on.  Ch'ien Lee is also not a botanist by profession but knows what he is doing.  Both these guys have extensive field experience which contrasts with many armchair botanists who may be technically excellent but lack field experience and don't realise how variable some species can be when they are not crispy brown and 2 dimensional.

A top botanist (and I mean TOP) in this field told me last year that a N. venticosa I was looking at was not N. ventricosa because it was red and all N. ventricosa are (according to him) white....  
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  • #48
And add to that the assumulated baggage of literally hundreds of years of descriptions, misdescriptions and redescriptions. Some species are really borderline, and some intraspecies stuff shows more variation. It drives me completely batty. But not being a botanist, I have to sit on the sidelines and watch the cat fights...
 
  • #49
I'll always remember Joachim Nerz giving the first talk at the ICPS conference in Bonn in 2000. He put 4 photos of utterly different looking neps up on the screen and his words were: "These are all Nepenthes maxima". I would have pegged them as 4 individual species, but apparently not.

Charles Clarke went some way to sorting out some of the confusion surrounding Sumatran Nepenthes but species such as Nepenthes alata and look alikes are just not glamorous enough for anyone to want to travel all over the Philippines sorting them out. I once got Charlie to go to Philippines with me but that was only to lie on a beach and stare a Mt. Halcon on the horizon, he's not overly keen on the place.
 
  • #50
Rob,

My break is running short , and I would love to ask more, but...are you saying that according to one field expert, red ventricosa are a different species than the TYPE pale form?

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #51
Joe,

I think what Rob was alluding too, but because he's too polite to say it openly, is that even a noted taxonomist can say something as patently stupid that a red ventricosa is not ventricosa because it's red...

That being the case, veitchii wouldn't be veitchii but about 15 different species!

Hamish
 
  • #52
That's right, and what about all the forms of Alata there are. Highland red striped, Var. Boschiana, and a few others that i don't know.

Also, what about Rafflesiana, with the giant form, Var. Nivea, VAr. Elongata, Var. Alata, and, of course, the typical form.

Note people, Homo Sapiens (humans) are not different species between Caucaisan, African American, Asian, etc.

This is getting to be one  **** of a conversation.

Hmm, Maybe Kinabaluensis x Bicalcarata. The huge pitchers, with the awesome peristome, and the fangs.
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 Plus, i think it would be very, very tolerant of temps. Maybe better as a highland though.

<span style='color:red'>Edit: Stop bypassing the filter using symbols dashes spaces or any other means.  LAST warning</span>
 
  • #53
This is something i always wanted:

villosa X ampullaria= I am sure it will withstand the widest range of temperature fluctuations.

Gus
 
  • #54
Joe,

Actually, the guy is definitely a good taxonomist and well respected in his field but sees things in only shades of black and brown

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  • #55
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Borneo @ Nov. 12 2004,10:56)]Joe,

Actually, the guy is definitely a good taxonomist and well respected in his field but sees things in only shades of black and brown

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Hey Rob,

this makes it quite easy to determine whom you're speaking of...
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Cheers Joachim
 
  • #56
Villosa x Ampullaria huh? Lemme imagine how it would look here... A reasonable sized pitcher with an upside down (you know, like Ampullaria's is?) lid, and a nice tubby shape with spines around the rim. Sounds good. I just wonder if one could grow it on a windowsill, or what kind of greenhouse one should grow it in.

By the way Tony, from what you're saying, you'd rather me type in the obscene word, and let the word filter take care of it than me just typing in random symbols that have nothing to do with the word like they do in kid's cartoons? That's the way i'm reading it. (No offense there, i got carried away.)

Nice "talking" to all of you guys
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Dave
 
  • #57
[b said:
Quote[/b] (NepenthesMaster @ Nov. 18 2004,5:51)]By the way Tony, from what you're saying, you'd rather me type in the obscene word, and let the word filter take care of it than me just typing in random symbols that have nothing to do with the word like they do in kid's cartoons? That's the way i'm reading it. (No offense there, i got carried away.)
Bonk!

That was a joke right?? You forget I am an old fuddy duddy.

Now if I could just keep my desk as clean as the language on this forum, life would be perfect.

T
 
  • #58
Ha ha ha. You know, evening TV probably has more innapropriate language and references than i usually use. Yeah, that was a joke. Besides, i automatically try to find loopholes in everything i do or hear. Say, if a person put me in the middle of a desert, and told me to walk a hundred yards without touching the ground, i'd just walk one hundred yards. Get it, your touching the inside of your shoes and not the ground.
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Anyway, i guess i'm getting off the point here. Tony, what do you think of a Villosa x Ampullaria? I'd make one myself, but One, i don't have either of those. (yet), and Two, I don't think they sell many Neps (especially Villosa) with a big ole climbing stem ready to flower. Maybe someone has an Ampullaria or Villosa that outgrew it's terrarium.
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  • #59
I have (finally!) a flowering N. ampullaria - tricolor.  Now if all those people with flowering N. villosa would just form a queue please... steady there! No need to rush...  
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