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Veitchii and bongso

are these guys related? i have both that opened their first pitchers for me this week. one thing that popped in my head that if your took overal color and color patterns out of the equation the only major difference between the two was the fact that the veitchii is "fuzzy" and the bongso isnt. lid shape, peristrome shape, overal configuration, everything i can see is identical other than veitchii is covered in hairs. the veitchii also has a broader peristrome but not by a whole lot. so any one have opinions. i know bongso is supposed to be fairly close to ovata and spathulata but could veitchii fit in there somewhere too?
 
I beleive it is like a "cousin" or similar in relation.

Joe
 
Wow, i never realized that. You may be on to something there.
 
I think it's more likely to be convergent evolution.

Veitchii is a Borneo plant whereas bongso is from west Sumatra.
 
There are superficial similarities, but closer inspection reveals quite a few differences. Pitcher shape, pitcher dimorphism, slightly peltate tendril attachment in bongso, hirsuteness of veitchii, growth habit etc.

H.
 
fatboy, could very well be. there are just so many simularities between the two that the thought occured to me. i probably wouldnt have noticed its just that both are developing their first pitcher for me since i got them, and are produceing fairly simmilar sized pitchers that ive just been paying really close attention to both.

some of the small detail struck me as being really similar: the spur at the base of the lid, the same small teeth where the peristrome joins at the top, ect. granted the leaf shape is different and the fuzziness of the veitchii. so maybe common "ancestor" not to far back? i realize all neps have one common ancestor in theory but im talking the split not being to terribly far back in time? now you really got my curiosity up and ill have to get my hands on ovata and spathulata which are supposedly really close to bongso so i can compare and contrast the three of them.

does anyone have a fairly accurate list of what species grow where? Nepenthes University has quite abit of elevation data for a large number but few tell me what country(s) they are located in. Wistuba does pretty good but his site isnt terribly user friendly when my dial-up is having a bad day.
 
I tend to agree with Hamish in that they don't appear that close, to me!
If you have a look at most of the ones from around central/ west Sumatra they are all VERY similar to the point that it can sometimes be very difficult to tell what species you are looking at.
I still don't think that the pectinata/ gymnamphora thing has been properly settled.

Perhaps a change of topic will paint a clearer picture, what plant do you think this is?
guess.jpg


Cheers, Troy.
 
actually Troy i have no clue. you must remember that i am in the middle of nowhere and have only seen a handful of Nepenthes species outside the small number in my collection. my whole veitchii/bongso connection comes from the fact i have both in front of me. if i had more speces of similar size/age, especially more from Borneo and Sumatra, i bet the differences would leap out to me just like they do you and Hamish. i just need to get myself a greenhouse built so i can grow a larger variety of Neps. i do not doubt what you are telling me is true, i just lack the personal experiance to have the extra data that would have kept me from making the leap.

that said, what is that species? it reminds me of my bongso but i dont think thats quite right. my bongso doesnt have a constricted waist, the peristrome flairs quite a bit more on mine and the "teeth" up twords the base of the lid are much larger on your picture than on my plant. im guessing your posting a pic of a similar looking species to bongso but it is actually something completely different from a different island/country
 
course those pitcher appear to be intermediates and my bongso is producing lowers which doent help the comparison.
 
  • #10
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fatboy @ Mar. 13 2005,1:44)]Perhaps a change of topic will paint a clearer picture, what plant do you think this is?
guess.jpg


Cheers, Troy.
Hi Troy,
It looks a little like an N. ovata?

cheers

bill
 
  • #12
I'm sorry but no cigar yet gentlemen...
 
  • #13
Hi,

difficult question. The pitchers look like one of my N. singalana but the leafes are more similar to N. carunculata. So it might be in fact N. spathulata.

Joachim
 
  • #14
Ah *smacks forehead* Why didn't I see that....N. ovata is more squat anyways....just goes to show what early postings in the day can do!
 
  • #15
LOL Joachim you are covering a lot of bases there, so finally you think it is spath?
 
  • #16
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fatboy @ Mar. 13 2005,11:23)]LOL Joachim you are covering a lot of bases there, so finally you think it is spath?
Hi Troy,

yes I do think it is N. spathulata. - But mostly because I found a very similar looking plant on a picture labeled N. spathulata in my 'Troy_Davis' subfolder on my harddisk
smile.gif


Joachim
 
  • #17
Welcome back Troy! Just goes to show you how hard taxonomy can be and the difficulty in drawing too many conclusions based on a few easily observable similarities! There are however many many features taxonomists use to help distinguish between species. The majority between N. veitchii and N. bongso are not similar. The common ancestor question is interesting but it is also possible that Nepenthes from different regions evolved independently as opposed from diversifying from one ancestor...

Tony
 
  • #18
I'm gonna stand way out on a limb and say it is N. macrovulgaris. Course (I am probably terribly wrong.

Joe
 
  • #19
Um, my guess is N. singalana. I am just going on by what the pitcher looks like to me-I don't have enough experience to use leaf shapes, lol.
Besides, my N. spathulata(I could go look at the leaves of it, I guess) is pretty typical of what I have seen and the pitchers are green with this peristome color.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #20
N. singalana is a good guess. Although it could be some sort of N. densiflora or N. diatas. I would go with that also. The tendril attachment is not correct for N. spathulata. The leaf margins on my N. spathulata don't connect at the tip and give it that peltate look in the photo.

Tony
 
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