TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
from Thailand. 
Wonderful. But you know, the most interesting picture is the final one, where you can see how similar your thorelii(d) is to this new "giant thorelii". I would say they're the same species, whatever species they are, only different forms, like insignis from Biak or Tayeve.
The two small pictures with 2 different stems, are they both from giant thorelii or one is from thorelii (d)?
It would be great to see the pictures of the stem, lid, pitcher etc of both plants one next to the other.
I'm preparing a page called "x-plants" on Nepenthes of Indochina, to compare all the specimens that we don't know much about. We talked about that in the WildJungle forum.
Surprisingly, on that page, it clearly appears how there are mainly 3 "species" to which all the x-plants can be reconducted (I'll put the page on the forum when it's ready, for a final check before putting it on the website).
The 3 types are basically what Nong calls "thorelii-Cambodia", then the plant with small roundish pitchers from Laos and then your thorelii (d).
One of these could be the true thorelii, the others new species. Sometimes I also think that N. smilesii from different countries could have quite different shapes, and that could explain some of those x-plants. But up to now the forms I've seen from Phu Kradung, ThungSalengLuang and 2 national parks in Cambodia are yes variable, but not SO variable to produce so different pitchers like the 3 types that I said before.
And then, when you look at the last of the photos you posted, you see how these plants can be variable but still you can see they're the same species, when that happens.
You'll see that quite well in my new page about x-plants.
Wonderful specimen, really.
Marcello
The two small pictures with 2 different stems, are they both from giant thorelii or one is from thorelii (d)?
It would be great to see the pictures of the stem, lid, pitcher etc of both plants one next to the other.
I'm preparing a page called "x-plants" on Nepenthes of Indochina, to compare all the specimens that we don't know much about. We talked about that in the WildJungle forum.
Surprisingly, on that page, it clearly appears how there are mainly 3 "species" to which all the x-plants can be reconducted (I'll put the page on the forum when it's ready, for a final check before putting it on the website).
The 3 types are basically what Nong calls "thorelii-Cambodia", then the plant with small roundish pitchers from Laos and then your thorelii (d).
One of these could be the true thorelii, the others new species. Sometimes I also think that N. smilesii from different countries could have quite different shapes, and that could explain some of those x-plants. But up to now the forms I've seen from Phu Kradung, ThungSalengLuang and 2 national parks in Cambodia are yes variable, but not SO variable to produce so different pitchers like the 3 types that I said before.
And then, when you look at the last of the photos you posted, you see how these plants can be variable but still you can see they're the same species, when that happens.
You'll see that quite well in my new page about x-plants.
Wonderful specimen, really.
Marcello
Last edited:
Marcello,
Both of the two photos of the vine side by side are the giant thorelii mystery Nep. Here is a pic of the leaf, notice the strong V shape characteristic of our two specimens.
The thorelii d does not have this leaf structure. More pics to come...
Feel free to use any of the pics on your Nepenthesofthailand website, Michelle took all of these pictures.
Both of the two photos of the vine side by side are the giant thorelii mystery Nep. Here is a pic of the leaf, notice the strong V shape characteristic of our two specimens.
The thorelii d does not have this leaf structure. More pics to come...
Feel free to use any of the pics on your Nepenthesofthailand website, Michelle took all of these pictures.
Very nice plant.
This 'Giant Thorelii' appears to be quite variable both in pitcher colour and form. Here is a photo of my plant: http://tinypic.com/a2w3l0.jpg
I believe this is a separate species to the various clones of N. 'thorelii' which are currently in cultivation due to the fact that it exhibits, as mentioned previously, a different growth habit compared to the others. The leaves look very similar to those of N. 'Viking', which got me thinking that maybe N. 'Viking' is a hybrid between this plant and N. rafflesiana (or a more complex cross involving some other Thai species)? Please let me know what you think.
This 'Giant Thorelii' appears to be quite variable both in pitcher colour and form. Here is a photo of my plant: http://tinypic.com/a2w3l0.jpg
I believe this is a separate species to the various clones of N. 'thorelii' which are currently in cultivation due to the fact that it exhibits, as mentioned previously, a different growth habit compared to the others. The leaves look very similar to those of N. 'Viking', which got me thinking that maybe N. 'Viking' is a hybrid between this plant and N. rafflesiana (or a more complex cross involving some other Thai species)? Please let me know what you think.
I thought it could be a hybrid between N. viking and the N. smilesii (it should be smilesii, but I just saw the upper pitchers) that you can find on one of the aopanga islands.
Also the "giant thorelii" has been found in one of those islands. Unfortunatly we never know much about the rest of the colony where these plants are found. It's very good that this time on Nong's site you can see a picture of different "giant thorelii" pitchers from different clones. But while in one clone they look like a bigger N. thorelii (d), in another clone they look like a N. viking!
Again, let's look at the plants you have (Trent and Nepgrower), take pictures of the leaf attachment, lid shape and how the glands are scattered, in your N. viking, thorelii (d) and the different thorelii "giant" forms you have. Let's do a comparison. That should help a lot already.
It's strange that for example the two Trent's specimens of "giant" show a very different attachment leaf/stem. Is it possible that it's because they are extremes of the same hybrid (one looks more similar to one species, the other clone to the other species involved in the hybrid) ? But leaf attachment in N. viking is the same as N. mirabilis, and it has nothing to do with these two "giants" (nepgrower, if you think that's not true, post a pic of the leaves of your viking and of your thorelii "giant", maybe we'll have a surprise!).
Hopefully the two Trent's giants will start looking more similar in cultivation. That will also help to study and compare these plants without being confused by the extreme (and extremely beautiful) shapes and colors they have in the natural habitat.
Up to now, I'm still quite impressed by the similarity between N. thorelii giant and thorelii (d) in that photo.
To bring some more confusion
I remind you about a plant called N. "kuraburi", at Nong's site, that is similar to N. viking but comes from the Kuraburi area. Its stem is the same as the first stem picture from the Trent's giants !!!
Guys, let's see what we have, let's put on the table any photo, any doubt, any thought, any theory, any lid!, any specimen we have. The more material = the more confusion at the beginning = the more truth at the end.
Marcello
Also the "giant thorelii" has been found in one of those islands. Unfortunatly we never know much about the rest of the colony where these plants are found. It's very good that this time on Nong's site you can see a picture of different "giant thorelii" pitchers from different clones. But while in one clone they look like a bigger N. thorelii (d), in another clone they look like a N. viking!
Again, let's look at the plants you have (Trent and Nepgrower), take pictures of the leaf attachment, lid shape and how the glands are scattered, in your N. viking, thorelii (d) and the different thorelii "giant" forms you have. Let's do a comparison. That should help a lot already.
It's strange that for example the two Trent's specimens of "giant" show a very different attachment leaf/stem. Is it possible that it's because they are extremes of the same hybrid (one looks more similar to one species, the other clone to the other species involved in the hybrid) ? But leaf attachment in N. viking is the same as N. mirabilis, and it has nothing to do with these two "giants" (nepgrower, if you think that's not true, post a pic of the leaves of your viking and of your thorelii "giant", maybe we'll have a surprise!).
Hopefully the two Trent's giants will start looking more similar in cultivation. That will also help to study and compare these plants without being confused by the extreme (and extremely beautiful) shapes and colors they have in the natural habitat.
Up to now, I'm still quite impressed by the similarity between N. thorelii giant and thorelii (d) in that photo.
To bring some more confusion
Guys, let's see what we have, let's put on the table any photo, any doubt, any thought, any theory, any lid!, any specimen we have. The more material = the more confusion at the beginning = the more truth at the end.
Marcello
There are many forms of these kinds of Nepenthes grow naturally together with N. sp. 'Viking'. It might be just a form of N. thorelii but it could be a natural hybrid with N. sp. 'Viking' x thorelii or even be another form of N. sp. 'Viking'.
And beside that, there are many intermidiate forms between what we called N. thorelii and N. sp. 'Viking'. came together with wild-collected N. sp. 'Viking'.
And beside that, there are many intermidiate forms between what we called N. thorelii and N. sp. 'Viking'. came together with wild-collected N. sp. 'Viking'.
We are fairly sure that Viking is not a natural hybrid with rafflesiana. We have yet to see a Viking display spots, and rafflesiana passes its spotting on to its progeny. We have compared growth habits of Viking, thorelii(d), 'Red Tiger' thorelii, Cambodian thorelii, thorelii 'Giant'-Aopanga, kampotiana, and (thorelii-red x thorelii-squat). All are in our greenhouse and we admit it is confusing. For one, we are fairly convinced that Viking has its ancestry in mirabilis, and is either a subspecies or a sp. nov. The giant thorelii are acclimating to our greenhouse after a long trip from Thailand, but are already sending up new leaves. Like Marcello explained, lets see what they look like in our horticultural environment in a few months.
Marcello asked for any ideas or theories, well, based on our observations, here it is: This group of Nepenthes are all recent evolutionary forms, probably rooted in mirabilis and smilesii. As to whether they are mostly or all subspecies, or distinct species is up to taxonomists-you know, the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Personally, we think the giant thorelii is not a hybrid with Viking, but its own thing, probably derived from Thai thorelii (we are proceeding with the notion that 'true thorelii' is found to the north, in a band extending from Vietnam, thru Cambodia, northern Thailand and perhaps into Laos-but none of this is truly verified yet). Thai thorelii-the Red Tigers etc, are not true thorelii, but may be smilesii. We are not sure about this and are leaning towards thinking that Thai thorelii is actually a distinct species allied to smilesii. They look different from our kampotiana, which bears a much closer resemblance to Marcello's seedling smilesii plants from Phu Kradung. We view smilesii as really being several subspecies.
May we stick our necks out further and theorize that all these Indochina Neps have occurred since the last ice age, as the region has gradually become more tropical, Nepenthes have spread north into this monsoonal tropical climate, and we are seeing an evolutionary snapshot of species differentiation.
Marcello asked for any ideas or theories, well, based on our observations, here it is: This group of Nepenthes are all recent evolutionary forms, probably rooted in mirabilis and smilesii. As to whether they are mostly or all subspecies, or distinct species is up to taxonomists-you know, the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Personally, we think the giant thorelii is not a hybrid with Viking, but its own thing, probably derived from Thai thorelii (we are proceeding with the notion that 'true thorelii' is found to the north, in a band extending from Vietnam, thru Cambodia, northern Thailand and perhaps into Laos-but none of this is truly verified yet). Thai thorelii-the Red Tigers etc, are not true thorelii, but may be smilesii. We are not sure about this and are leaning towards thinking that Thai thorelii is actually a distinct species allied to smilesii. They look different from our kampotiana, which bears a much closer resemblance to Marcello's seedling smilesii plants from Phu Kradung. We view smilesii as really being several subspecies.
May we stick our necks out further and theorize that all these Indochina Neps have occurred since the last ice age, as the region has gradually become more tropical, Nepenthes have spread north into this monsoonal tropical climate, and we are seeing an evolutionary snapshot of species differentiation.
After discussing N. sp. Viking, thorelii, mirabilis, smilesii with a friend in Thailand (he has more botanical experience than many of us) tells me that the thorelii seen on Nong's site might be the true N. smilesii. The pictures Trent/Michelle displayed are also candidates for the true N. smilesii and that the direction for botanists is to place them as rediscovered N. smilesii. As for the sp. Vikings, they don't know where that one came from as they also believe that they are not closely related to N. rafflesiana. They might fall closer to a deviant of N. thorelii (true).
But what ever they are they should definitely be used in breeding!
Michael
But what ever they are they should definitely be used in breeding!
Michael
Trent, I agree very much in what you say. I know, it's now up to lumpers and splitters. But still I would like to reach a point where we know what these forms/species look like (their shape "extremes"), where they come from etc. I think I'll take as many infos as possible (compared to the last time that I went to Thailand, now I could go and clear up hundreds of obscure points, considering that Nepenthes of Indochina was the fruit of my first trip, when I used to know more or less nothing) and then I'll go back to those jungles.
You see how it's more or less possible to group these forms/species, even if they're similar. No doubt that looking at those mirabilis-like or smilesii-like leaves, all these plants must derive from these two species. But it would be good if we could be sure that there's no thorelii giant, thorelii(D), thorelii kondo, "kuraburi" etc but just many forms of a N. sp. "A", from south of Thailand.
And not even thorelii tiger, red, thai thorelii, striped etc but just many forms of N. sp. "B", from Cambodia and Laos, etc.
What you think about the x-plant page I sent on WildJungle?
---------------------------------------------
Chanrit, it looks like you know more than you're saying!
please, give more precise informations. You speak about many forms growing on Aopanga. We need photos, at the moment we just have a photo of some upper pitchers of a plant from Aopanga that looks like N. smilesii. What you call "intermediate forms" are probably hybrids between the two species, but maybe the lower pitchers will show how this plants is the "giant thorelii" and not a smilesii. *
------------------------------------------------------
Michael, I would be curious to know the name of your friend, as his notions about Thai Neps appear to be a little confused
The clear points, more or less generally accepted, are:
-N. viking derived from N. mirabilis
-N. smilesii (ex kampotiana, anamensis, geoffrayi) is the plant that grows on Phu Kradung, Thung Saleng Luang and probably many other places in Thailand (maybe also in the southern lowlands)
The not clear points are:
-how can we classify all the strange forms that are coming out in the last period, like for example the "giant thorelii" etc (including all the x-plants that you find on the WildJungle forum) ?
-what does the true "thorelii" look like?
-------------------------------------------------------
If you want to check the x-plants page, it's in the last message of this forum:
Nepenthes of Indochina
Marcello
You see how it's more or less possible to group these forms/species, even if they're similar. No doubt that looking at those mirabilis-like or smilesii-like leaves, all these plants must derive from these two species. But it would be good if we could be sure that there's no thorelii giant, thorelii(D), thorelii kondo, "kuraburi" etc but just many forms of a N. sp. "A", from south of Thailand.
And not even thorelii tiger, red, thai thorelii, striped etc but just many forms of N. sp. "B", from Cambodia and Laos, etc.
What you think about the x-plant page I sent on WildJungle?
---------------------------------------------
Chanrit, it looks like you know more than you're saying!
please, give more precise informations. You speak about many forms growing on Aopanga. We need photos, at the moment we just have a photo of some upper pitchers of a plant from Aopanga that looks like N. smilesii. What you call "intermediate forms" are probably hybrids between the two species, but maybe the lower pitchers will show how this plants is the "giant thorelii" and not a smilesii. *
------------------------------------------------------
Michael, I would be curious to know the name of your friend, as his notions about Thai Neps appear to be a little confused
The clear points, more or less generally accepted, are:
-N. viking derived from N. mirabilis
-N. smilesii (ex kampotiana, anamensis, geoffrayi) is the plant that grows on Phu Kradung, Thung Saleng Luang and probably many other places in Thailand (maybe also in the southern lowlands)
The not clear points are:
-how can we classify all the strange forms that are coming out in the last period, like for example the "giant thorelii" etc (including all the x-plants that you find on the WildJungle forum) ?
-what does the true "thorelii" look like?
-------------------------------------------------------
If you want to check the x-plants page, it's in the last message of this forum:
Nepenthes of Indochina
Marcello
Last edited:
We suspect that all of the thorelii from the Mansell's are related. We even suspect that the seed from Allen Lowrie may have been off his own plants that he got from the same source as the Mansell's (Brisbane Botanical Gardens?). They do look strikingly similar to Kondo's picture, and may in fact all be from the same two or three plants.
