Seeds from a red piranha?

[JMurphy97]

Can a red piranha and dente plant produce seeds like a regular VFT and grow into the same type? Someone said you can't grow them from seeds so how can they keep reproducing?

 

[technoracer]

most likely, seeds from a dente or a red piranha will grow into typical vft's.  even if you get a seedling that exhibits the characteristics of the cultiver from which the seeds came, you can't call it by that name because it is not an exact genetic clone (ie: seeds from a dente that grow into plants that look like dente's, can not be called a dente.).

reproduction comes from tissue culture and cuttings and divisions of the cultiver.

tech...

 

[JMurphy97]

Will it look like the dente though? Why would it come from one plant but look like a different plant? What if you buy "red dragon" seeds, will the plant turn red or stay green? What I'm saying is if they seeds come from a "red piramha" plant will they grow to look like the "red piranha" or regular? Kind of confusing.

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

As tech states, you'd get mostly typical VFTs. I believe, that in the case of a seedling that matches the parent plants official description, you can call it by that parent plants name. The way the rules are phrased, if a plant fits the official description of a cultivar, it can be considered that cultivar. That also means it is possible to get a plant that looks like a particular cultivar that isn't from the same crosses as the original cultivar. Sounds like a bass-ackward rule but it's the rule (until something better comes along).

EDIT: There is only one species of VFT. All the VFT's, "Big Mouth, 'Dentate Trap', 'Green Dragon', 'Red Dragon, etc., are just a "mutation" or variation of the typical VFT. These are CULTIvated VARieties (CULTIVARs) of the VFT. The only reason they are around in any number is that they appealled to people who spread them around. While they occasionally pop up from seeds, the best way to insure getting the same characteristics in a new plant is to make clones of the original plant using TC or leaf cuttings. In the wild they aren't that common.

Sorry, I don't mean to lecture, but thought this might clear up why 'Red Dragon' or any VFT cultivars seeds will mostly result in a typical VFT.

 

[JMurphy97]

So how do you make these different variations? I want to buy one let it flower and get more that. I thought one red piranha would get me more if I let it flower and produce seeds. Now I'm just gonna get regular VFT's. darn wish I knew this before I bout red dragon seeds.

 

[seedjar]

Some may look like they original, some may not. You should read up a little on Mendelian genetics. Basically, the variations are just unusual genetic traits that are turned on in a certain combination. The variations come about by random mutation - all the cultivars you see are descendants of 'ordinary' looking VFTs. You're more likely to get the characteristics of a certain cultivar in that plant's offspring, but there's no assurance. You just have to plant lots of seed and wait for an unusual variety to appear. Once you have a plant whose characteristics you'd like to preserve, you have to clone it rather than propagate it by seed.
I hope that helps.
~Joe

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

There are ways to induce mutations artificially using chemicals that are very hazardous to your own health if not treated with care and respect. Not something I would want in my own house to be honest. Don't give up on the seeds entirely. When it comes to genetics, you can never be sure what will happen 100% of the time. There's always a possibility of a wild card in the bunch. I selfed a red VFT of mine and all the seedlings that came up were red. Mind you, only one of them has survived (neglected 'em

), but with luck it will be as colorful if not more so than its parent.

 

[philcula]

Yes....seeds produced from a true red piranha will produce mostly dark red, piranha-ish type plants. I planted out 200 seed from a selfing of red piranha and all 200 of them are deep burgundy red with dentate teeth. I also planted out several flats of dentate seed produced from selfings of my oldest plants and none of them ever showed any typical vft characteristics in their mature stage. They all had varying degrees of dentate type teeth.

 

[JMurphy97]

How or where do I get a true red piranha plant then? Or seeds of one?

 

[philcula]

It's probably best to try obtaining one through the trade forum or contacting Ivan Snyder personally.

 

[JMurphy97]

Who is Ivan Snyder? What about buying one from some online place? I'm not sure this place has any though so I'll have to find somewhere. Any suggestions?

 

[JMurphy97]

If the plant is from division will it's seeds become like the plant that the seeds came from. In simple words: will seeds from a red piranha division produce red piranha plants?

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

NOPE! A plant from a division is an exact copy (clone) of the original plant. For more info see this topic Seeds from a red piranha?

 

[JMurphy97]

The topic link you put up is for this topic. So if it is a clone of a red piranha plant how will it not produce seeds that grow to me like it? This plant stuff is confusing. How or where do you get a red piranha that would produce seeds that would grow into another red piranha VFT? I was looking to buy one and in time have it flower and then get more buy the seeds. I don't want to have keep buying a new one if something happens.

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Plain and simple: No matter what variety of VFT seed you sow, the majority of the plants that grow will look lik typical VFTs. The few that don't may slightly resemble the parent plant(s). One in a million may look like the parent plant. There is only one type of VFT, the typical VFT. All other VFT varieties are a variation of the typical VFT. The typical VFT genes are dominant.

 

[philcula]

Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ Feb. 15 2006,1:47)]Plain and simple: No matter what variety of VFT seed you sow, the majority of the plants that grow will look lik typical VFTs.  

Plain and simple: This is absolutely, positively NOT true! I have been breeding and growing vft for decades...yes that's at least 20 years and seed produced from a red piranha will produce red piranha-ish plants and seed produced from dente will produce dente-ish plants and seed produced from red dragon and green dragon will produce red dragon-ish and green dragon-ish plants.

If you have done the research yourself, invested the years, worked with pure clonal stock and repeated the process again and again then I will accept your opinion as stated. But you see...I have done this for you already, MANY times.

So to answer JMurphy97's question: YES!!! Seed produced from a Red Piranha vft WILL produce plants that resemble Red Piranha. I've already proven this say...oh...200 times!

 

[BobZ]

Just to add to this a small bit, philcula is absolutely correct.

The Cultivar Registration system is a bit flawed. For any plant to be called the Cultivar name, all that is required is that the new plant simply look like the official description of the registered cultivar in all respects. Who decides?

Following is the official description of Dionaea 'Red Piranha' by Edward Read that appeared in CPN, Volume 28, Number 3, September 1999, page 99:

Quote[/b] ]In 1995 I received seedlings of dentate Venus Flytraps (plants with triangular, toothlike marginal tentacles, or trap bars) from my friend Ivan Snyder. These were f5 plants derived from a dentate Venus Flytrap that was selected by Leo Song, Jr. many years ago from a batch of wild-collected plants. The plants I received lacked red coloration, but they gave me the idea to make a dentate Venus Flytrap that was intensely red.

On June 20, 1995 I crossed the dentate Venus Flytrap that had the most triangular trap bars with a red Venus Flytrap developed in Europe. The flower was emasculated to avoid self pollination. Ivan germinated the resulting seed--all these f1 plants were green. The fastest grower (which matured in eight months) with the best dentate trap bars was selected. Its flowers were self pollinated. Of the few hundred seedlings, one quarter had red coloration--the red coloration is apparently recessive. The plants varied greatly in trap bar size and shape, but one plant in particular was just what I wanted. Because it is red and has trap bars that look like piranha teeth, I named it Dionaea 'Red Piranha'.

As with other red Venus Flytraps the intensity of red coloration varies according to cultivation and season. It has been noted by growers who cultivate it next to other popular red Venus Flytraps that its red coloration equals, if not supercedes, their red color. With the help of my friend Ivan, my idea of a dentate Venus Flytrap with red coloration became reality. Dionaea 'Red Piranha' is a beautiful flytrap deserving a place in every plant collection.

This article will soon be on the ICPS Web site.

So, if you really want a real 'Red Piranha', you would be advised to get it from someone that has a clone from the original plant, not just any old red dentate VFT that someone calls a "Red Piranha". When trading cultivars, be very suspicious about the plant. There are many plants being circulated that look nothing like the original. Particularly, plants propagated by seed.

 

[JMurphy97]

I'm just sure where to get a clone from a real red piranha. There are two places I was looking to order from. I dunno if I should say who because I asked about another site that sells VFT's and people got mad because of this sponser of this site. So if someone would let me know where I should get a real clone that would be great.

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Quote[/b] (philcula @ Feb. 15 2006,3:22)]...seed produced from a red piranha will produce red piranha-ish plants and seed produced from dente will produce dente-ish plants and seed produced from red dragon and green dragon will produce red dragon-ish and green dragon-ish plants.

Phil, I plead guilty to overstating the stats to get the point across that you aren't likely to get a 'Red Pirahna' from 'Red Pirahna' seeds, or a 'Dentate Trap' from 'Dentate Trap' seeds, etc. You will get plants that have the predominant characteristic of the parent plant(s) to some degree or another. Or as you said, they will be piranha-ish or red dragon-ish.

Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ Feb. 12 2006,4:02)]....While they occasionally pop up from seeds, the best way to insure getting the same characteristics (of the parent plant) in a new plant is to make clones of the original plant using TC or leaf cuttings.

Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ Feb. 12 2006,8:18)]....Don't give up on the seeds entirely. When it comes to genetics, you can never be sure what will happen 100% of the time. There's always a possibility of a wild card in the bunch. I selfed a red VFT of mine and all the seedlings that came up were red. Mind you, only one of them has survived <snip>, but with luck it will be as colorful if not more so than its parent.

His question pryor to my last post made it apparent that he still expected to get a 'Red Pirahna' from seed. It's possible, but he will have to check the description of his plant under various growing conditions (I assume*) to make sure the 'Red Pirahna' traits hold true in his F2 plant and still match that of the official description. If it was my plant, I would want to be sure it held true to the original plant description before passing it off as that plant.

*I assume this holds true for a "wanna be" 'Red Pirahna'as it is expected of the original plant from which the description was derived. From the description that BobZ posted, this part won't too be hard for 'Red Pirahna'.

BobZ, I have gotten a chuckle the time or three the subject has come up on the list serve.

Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ Feb. 12 2006,4:02)]...I believe, that in the case of a seedling that matches the parent plants official description, you can call it by that parent plants name. The way the rules are phrased, if a plant fits the official description of a cultivar, it can be considered that cultivar. That also means it is possible to get a plant that looks like a particular cultivar that isn't from the same crosses as the original cultivar. Sounds like a bass-ackward rule but it's the rule (until something better comes along).