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Are these temps ok for outdoor dormancy???

joossa

Aklys
These are the mean temps. for each month in my city...

Mean Monthly Temperatures (in °F) J34 F37 M40 A75 M83 J92 J98 A97 S91 O80 N67 D33

* Annual Average High Temperatures: 98°F (summer) 59°F (winter)
* Annual Average Low Temperatures 65°F (summer) 33°F (winter)
* Highest Recorded Temperature: 113°F (1972)
* Lowest Recorded Temperature: 6°F (1963)
* Warmest Month: July
* Coolest Month: December
* Highest Precipitation: February
* Annual Precipitation: 7.36 inches


The letter before the number is the first letter of the month (I'm sure u figured it out).

So r they ok for winter dormancy?
confused.gif
 
IMO, thats far too warm..
but..you really dont have any alternative, so you will just have to leave them outside and hope for the best.

you cant use the fridge method, because it doesnt get cool enough in the autumn to trigger dormancy in the first place..so that wont work.

Your climate is MUCH warmer than the VFT native climate..but maybe it will be cool enough in the winter to trigger a semi-dormancy..all you can do is try it! it might work..

Scot
 
IMO, I think you should be fine. The three months below 40 degrees along with the shorter photo period will be enough.
Below are some monthly averages I got from the National Weather Service in Wilmington, NC

Jan  45.6  Jul    80.3
Feb  47.4  Aug  79.7
Mar  54.1  Sept 74.8
Apr  54.1  Oct   64.5
May 63.1  Nov  55.4
Jun  76.6  Dec   48.2
Information provided by the National Weather Service in Wilmington,
which is located at the Wilmington International Airport
 
Hey, the people in California are getting their VFT's to go dormant. Photoperiod is more signicant of a factor than that of temperature.
 
and jim always sums it up better than i
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Sep. 18 2006,5:38)]Hey, the people in California are getting their vFT's to go dormant. Photoperiod is more signicant of a factor than that of ltemperature.
MORE significant is still an opinion..not a fact! ;)

IMO, temp is more important than photoperiod..but both are a factor. (for reasons we have been over many times...my "outdoor bonsai in a greenhouse" example..)

it will probably be fine..its not ideal, its very much on the "warm side" of a VFT's adaptable conditions..but just try it, it will hopefully work.

Scot
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]you cant use the fridge method, because it doesnt get cool enough in the autumn to trigger dormancy in the first place..so that wont work.

MORE significant is still an opinion..not a fact! ;)

IMO, temp is more important than photoperiod

I disagree. You have never given any evidence that cold has anything whatsoever to do with plants initiating dormancy. It is important for maintaining dormancy, but not for starting it.

Those temps are just fine. Despite Scotty's continual protests that cold is the most important factor in dormancy, my plants go dormant every single year without any problems. My winter temps are even higher than yours so I would not worry about it at all.

Here are the average temps for my area to give you an idea:

Jan.  59/42
Feb.  63/45
Mar.  67/46
Apr.  72/48
May   77/52
Jun.   82/55
Jul.    84/58
Aug.   84/58
Sep.   82/57
Oct.   76/52
Nov.   65/46
Dec.   59/41

It is not unusual to have warm days (in the 70's) right up through Thanksgiving around here. As soon as the daylength gets short enough (around mid-October), the plants go dormant.  A perfect example of this is my D. filiformis. It has not been cooler than 80* in the daytime for months but all of the D. filiformis are showing all the normal signs of the onset of dormancy.

Good luck
Steve
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (vft guy in SJ @ Sep. 18 2006,10:43)]I disagree. You have never given any evidence that cold has anything whatsoever to do with plants initiating dormancy.
I have given lots of evidence...many times..apparently you just wish to ignore it.
here it is again.

Bonsai trees.
Bonsai made from native upstate NY maple trees.
they need to be outside 24/7/365.
they need a very cold western NY winter.
they go dormant exactly the same as any "regular" northern US tree.

A local nursery, several years ago, was selling maple Bonsai trees..
they had them indoors.
they were indoors all spring.
all summer.
all fall.
and into the following winter.

I came across them in January..indoors..not dormant.
they still had their leaves, and looked very sickly.
they were inside a heated greenhouse.
so lets see what happened...
Maple trees indoors vs. Maple trees outdoors.

Maple tree outdoors.
late summer and into autumn.
photoperiod and temps BOTH drop..
tree gets temp and light cues that "its time to begin going dormant"
tree drops its leaves in October..as it should.
by January, in low light and freezing cold, totally dormant.

Maple tree indoors:
late summer and into autumn.
tree is getting a normal decreasing photoperiod, same as outdoor trees, but temp is NOT dropping..
indoor heat comes on in the fall..
tree stays at 70 degrees day and night.
photoperiod is dropping..temp isnt.
In january, the tree is NOT dormant!
it still has its leaves..
conclusion: photoperiod is important, but if temps dont also drop, the plant wont go dormant.

Decreasing photoperiod will NOT cause the plant to go dormant if temps do not also drop.

I personally witnessed that.

now lets take a hypothetical plant..(I did not personally witness this)
Tree is outdoors under bright grow lights.
temps begin to drop in the fall, but LIGHT stays bright and constant.
temps gradually fall below freezing..light levels stay the same..
Will that tree have leaves and be growing in January in Rochester when the temp is 10 below zero, 3 feet of snow on the ground, but lots of bright light is shining on the tree??
unliklely! falling temps will cause the plant to go dormant, even if photoperiod does NOT drop..

VFT's are the same..they are a plant that requires a cool winter to go dormant.

decreasing photoperiod + 70 degrees = not dormant..just weak from lack of light.

bright light + 35 degrees = more dormant. plant wont grow in the cold, even if the light is bright.

less light + cold = ideal..and what VFT's get in the wild and what we should try to provide.

conclusion to all of this?
temp is MORE important than light when it comes to creating and maintaining dormancy.

you can have all the light you want..a VFT at 35 degrees and tons of light will still go dormant, and will be fine in the spring.

a VFT in a dark closet at 90 degrees for three months wont go dormant.
it will just weaken and die.

The same thing happens in the Spring..
leaves on trees dont come out at exactly the same time every year.."breaking of dormancy" can happen within a variable span of three weeks or so every year.
Photoperiod is constant..it does NOT change year to year.
so what causes variabaility?
temp..
trees wont push out new leaves if the temps are still 40 degrees and its snowing..even if the photoperiod is telling them its time. they wait for the warmth, and some years that happens later than other years..even though the photoperiod is not variable..

conclusion?
temp is MORE important that photoperiod when it comes to causing, maintaining, and breaking dormancy.
sorry..I didnt make this up.
I dont undertand why some people are so offended and angry at Nature..but I guess I cant help that.


Scot
 
well, a venus flytrap is not a maple tree.
a drop in temp is needed to trigger dormancy but not an extended freeze as you recomend. 40 degrees is fine to kick the plant into dormancy and is also about the average temp that the plants would encounter in their native habitat.
 
  • #10
[b said:
Quote[/b] (kahnli @ Sep. 19 2006,2:52)]well, a venus flytrap is not a maple tree.
a drop in temp is needed to trigger dormancy but not an extended freeze as you recomend. 40 degrees is fine to kick the plant into dormancy and is also about the average temp that the plants would encounter in their native habitat.
I agree fully..
but we arent talking about 40 degrees..
if Southern California had temps in the 40's all winter, thsi thread wouldnt even exist..
we are talking of an average daytime high of 60 in January..
that means many days in January its higher than 60..probably 70..MUCH warmer than the native VFT winter temps.

I agree..it will probably be fine.
Joossa simply asked if his winter temps are ok for a VFT dormancy..I said its really warm for a VFT dormancy, and it is, but it will probably work, and it probably will.
I dont see the problem with saying any of that..

He should NOT be told "oh sure! no problem! its all perfectly nice and wonderfull!" because that isnt the truth..
the truth is that his climate is really really warm for a VFT..
VFT's might not be happy there..
they would do better with a cooler winter.
again, im not personally responsible for creating the climate a VFT can be happy and thrive in..so dont shoot the messenger.

I cant grow palm trees or saguaro cactus in my back yard..
and I dont attack people when they tell me I cant..

Scot
 
  • #11
I am not angry or offended at nature. However I do not like to see people give inaccurate advice. The evidence you provide is (and always has been) based on your observations of bonsai trees. If a VFT was a bonsai tree then I would not be discounting your advice. The problem is that VFTs are not bonsai trees. They are not native to a climate where they expect sub-freezing temps and snow for several months a year.

I know probably a dozen growers from all over Northern California who all manage to grow VFTs that get proper dormancy every year. You have seen my average temps, most of them are comperable within +/- 5* or so. As I stated earlier, it is normal for us to have daytime temperatures into the mid 70s right up through November around here.

If you want to see some hard numbers than have a peek at this.  Here are the average temperatures of both Palmdale, Ca and Wilmington, NC.

Wilmington, NC         Palmdale, Ca.
Jan.   56/36             Jan.   59/34
Feb.   60/38             Feb.   63/37
Mar.   66/44             Mar.   68/40
Apr.   74/51             Apr.   75/45
May    81/60            May   83/53
Jun.   86/68             Jun.   92/60
Jul.   90/72              Jul.   97/66
Aug.   88/71             Aug.   97/65
Sep.   84/66             Sep.   91/59
Oct.   76/54             Oct.   80/50
Nov.   68/45             Nov.   67/39
Dec.   60/38             Dec.   59/33

Based on this evidence I believe that Joossa's temperatures are well within the tolerance of the VFT. They are not even close to being too warm, let alone "Far too warm". I feel completely fine telling him "oh sure! no problem! its all perfectly nice and wonderfull!" because it is. Now if he were growing bonsai trees then maybe it would be too warm..  good thing he's growing VFTs and not bonsai.

Steve
 
  • #12
Steve,
I like how you deflected the topic away from "which is more important..temp or light"..which was the point of my bonsai example, and turned it into something else entirely...probably because you dont want to admit you are wrong..ok, thats fine.

Scot
 
  • #13
I didn't deflect anything. First of all this topic is about "Are these temps ok for a VFT?" You answered that they were far too warm and I disagree. You backed up your claim by quoting the needs of bonsai trees. VFTs are not bonsai trees. How can you expect them to react the same way as a bonsai tree?

If you noticed in my first post I stated that my D. filiformis plants are going dormant right now. Does that mean that my VFTs should be dormant now as well? Not at all. VFTs are not D. filiformis any more than they are bonsai. Point being that these plants are all quite different. What one plant does should not be used as a blanket statement to cover all plants who follow a similar lifecycle. If I were to give advice on dormancy based on my observations of D. filiformis I would be telling everyone that all their plants should be going dormant right now and that these temps and conditions are what is needed to make that happen. The fact is that my advice in that case would be inaccurate.

Now, VFTS do NOT require the same kinds of temperature drops that bonsai trees do. Therefore the advice on what triggers dormancy in VFTs is different than that of bonsai. After years of observation I conclude that VFT's begin their dormancy well before the daytime temps get below 70 or 80. The biggest factor I have witnessed in this is the shortening of the photoperiod.

To further your example, A VFT grown in a greenhouse that gets constant 70* temps day and night would not get a proper dormancy. The drop in temperature is definately part of the equation that governs proper dormancy. That part has never been in dispute. However the statement that "Temp is the most important factor" is false, ESPECIALLY when it comes to initiating dormancy in VFT's. I have years of evidence to support it.

Steve
 
  • #14
Steve,
you continue to delibertely ignore my point..
yes, im aware that VFT's are not bonsai,
and they have different temp ranges for dormancy.

thats not the point.

YOU asked ME to prove that low temperature is more important than low light when it comes to triggering and maintaining dormancy..

I did.

yes, I know Bonsai take lower temps than VFT's for dormancy..
but they both respond to decreasing light and decreasing temps.
Both bonsai and VFTs respond the same way..the EXACT temperature is irrelevant..

you are only focusing on the fact that Bonsai can take lower temps than VFT's..thats irrelevant..
they both respond the same way to light and temp when going dormant.
*that* is how VFTs relate to Bonsai in my example.

low temp plays a more important role that low light.
thats a fact.
you get dormancy with low temps and steady light.
you dont get dormancy high temps and decreasing light.

you are just mincing details to avoid admitting that..im not sure why.

im willing to give this up if you are!
especially if you go off on another tangent in your reply.

Scot
 
  • #15
A VFT grown in a greenhouse that gets constant 70* temps day and night would not get a proper dormancy. The drop in temperature is definately part of the equation that governs proper dormancy. That part has never been in dispute.
a Decrease in photoperiod is also important, that part has also never been in dispute. However the statement that "Photoperiod is the MOST important factor" is false, when it comes to initiating dormancy in VFT's, or any plant that goes dormant. I have years of evidence to support it.

thats really the only thing disagree on..
which is "more important"..

you admit a plant at 70 degrees wont get a proper dormancy..ok..thats fine.

then what, in your opinion, will happen to a VFT that gets normal gradual decreasing temps through Autumn, from 90 in July through 40 in December, but light levels dont change and lessen?
Will the VFT be dormant in December at 40 degrees and bright light? yes or no?

Scot
 
  • #16
No it wouldn't.  

I will back this up by stating that Bugweed, who we all know is an extremely experienced grower of Sarracenia, starts his seeds outdoors under a small lamp which stays on 24/7. The normal temperature decrease happens just like it does here in my yard. The light stays on full time and his baby Sarracenia do NOT go dormant the first 2 years. Now before the argument comes up that Sars dont "need" dormancy the first 2 years, Let me say that although they dont "need" it, if allowed to they will. Bugweeds plants do NOT go dormant the first 2 years under the lights..  regardless of outside temperatures.
 
  • #17
Bugweed also lives in California..
San Francisco.
where winter temps arent as low as they are for the native VFT range.
SanFran temps dont get low enough to trigger the "low temps but high light" theory we are discussing.
thus, irrelevant to this discussion, and proves nothing.

but nice try.

ok, im done, this grows tiresome.
cool.gif


Scot
 
  • #18
Bugweed lives in Martinez Ca.  

His temperature averages are within about 5* of mine.  Check Weather.com for his averages. I am tired of typing all those numbers out.
 
  • #19
I already looked it up before I posted.
thats how I could say his temps are irrelevant to the discussion..

Scot
 
  • #20
[b said:
Quote[/b] (joossa @ Sep. 17 2006,9:11)]These are the mean temps. for each month in my city...

Mean Monthly Temperatures (in °F) J34 F37 M40 A75 M83 J92 J98 A97 S91 O80 N67 D33

* Annual Average High Temperatures: 98°F (summer) 59°F (winter)
* Annual Average Low Temperatures 65°F (summer) 33°F (winter)
* Highest Recorded Temperature: 113°F (1972)
* Lowest Recorded Temperature: 6°F (1963)
* Warmest Month: July
* Coolest Month: December
* Highest Precipitation: February
* Annual Precipitation: 7.36 inches


The letter before the number is the first letter of the month (I'm sure u figured it out).

So r they ok for winter dormancy?
confused.gif
Joossa,
your plants should be fine.
 
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