Yellowing Leaves

[GrowinOld]

Guard-Dog Nematodes

As far as using predatory nematodes, I have used some in my garden to deal with japanese beetle larva and other vegetable garden invaders. But as far as results are concerned, it is difficult to say. Predatory nematodes is like releasing a couple cats into the neighborhood & hoping they solve a mouse problem! Some will indeed help out, however it won't be as effective as putting out poison or traps. (Or time to call the Pied Piper!)
Most natural remedies are like that (IME) which is why the other methods were invented in the first place. (They do obviously have their drawbacks however.) Not that predatory nematodes can't help, but I wouldn't expect miracles from them. At least that's my opinion & experience, and others can certainly have great results that I haven't.

I do use Trichoderma & other natural means for doing things, so don't think that my mind isn't open to other things. But when it comes to things like what you are experiencing with your plants, I tend to find that the majority of what I was taught years ago still holds true, & the old methods are many times still the best way.

As far as the car worm meds, I would certainly go for it! First see if they kill the beasties in a separate container, then if that does kill them off, take a sacrificial VFT & give it a try to see how it does. That us exactly how new methods and ways are discovered, innovation! (I am actually a big proponent of that!)

Well, again good luck & do keep me posted on how it proceeds! I do wonder where these things came to you in the first place, & I'd watch to make sure it doesn't spread. I've caught various "bugs" from trades here on TF (no names mentioned), and it can be a real pain to eradicate them. But that is part of becoming a good grower, and really is good experience. You can't claim to be great at growing plants if you never have to deal with difficult situations. So in a way I congratulate you & want you to know you are not alone in this.

If worse comes to worse, we can always get you some new plants.
Take care

 

[gill_za]

I suspect that they came to me from a nursery that supplies these plants to the store I got three of my plants from.
Going to set up the experiment with the cat's de-wormer med today.
I have just flushed the pot with Ping. Put the transparent tray with the water from ping onto the black paper and what do I see... found these guys there as well. At this point as I was suspecting this infestation has spread.

 

[gill_za]

Update:

Well while I'm waiting for both plants to either improve or completely decline I've set up a little home-brew experiment where I've collected three 100-150mL aliquots from three trays of top watered plants that used to be in the same tray. All aliquots contained nematodes.
Prior to that a pill containing 100mg of piperazine chloride was dissolved in 100mL of DI water (0.1% w/v)
Approximately 30mL of piperazine chloride solution was added to the aliquotes and mixed gently.
Trays were covered and moved to darker location. 24hours later I see great reduction in the number of free moving worms.

This will be repeated with two treated trays and one untreated tray to serve as a control.

 

[GrowinOld]

Keep us posted!

 

[gill_za]

Update:
A couple of things I have noticed.

First: The experiment was repeated with two controls and two treated trays. The kill rate is very high but not 100%. There seem to be several types of worms. Some move in wavy-whole-body motions just like nematodes (all were paralyzed and died), others are moving in circles on the bottom of the tray without visibly flexing the bodies (Some of these survived). And I have found three others which look almost like flat worms. I am not claiming that they are trematodes just comparing. These are white and are 4 mm long, 0.5 mm thick (survived but seemed to be dying). They generally move slower then the rest. So I have a freaking zoo... Any way I added a cocktail of imidocloprid and pyrethryn to all treated trays after 48 hours and they should all be dead by now.

Second: The bugs definately came from one (possibly two) pots I purchased at a local store which gets them from flytrapfarm.com. Now I'm not saying that bugs originated at flytrapfarm.com, the store itself could have introduced them. But at the store pots were on the shelves and nowhere near the ground. So there...
How I have found this out? Simple: I have several seedlings pots isolated from the rest for a while (3 months) and used my own planting media and seeds. These pots had nothing visibly alive in them!

Anyway it seems to be working pretty well so, I have a pot with healthy young flytraps in them and will try soaking the soil with dewormer medicine to see if they will survive it.

 

[LeafKirby]

I heard that the nematodes will eventually start to attack all sorts of bugs.

 

[gill_za]

I heard that the nematodes will eventually start to attack all sorts of bugs.

That would be great but If these are plant nematodes I doubt they will. I wanted to introduce predatory nematodes specifically for that reason but if you read previous comments from GrowinOld poisons work better

 

[GrowinOld]

Hey Gill...
We haven't seen how the plants are now doing since the transplanting
on the 14th. Did things go successfully?
I am guessing that the plants may have put up a leaf or two since then,
and am wondering if they are greening up better than they were before,
or if the yellowing edges continues.

When they make some growth, post up another pic or two.
I am hoping that the "bug" situation was the source of the problem,
lest a search for another cause be in order.

While my VFT's have done a lot better for me in the greenhouse & outdoors, I simply have yet to find the "sweet spot" indoors for them. Many of my young seedling Sarrs have actually done better indoors under lights, but that is because I can control the light & temps, forcing them to grow & not having to follow the "seasons" indoors. They color up before the others, and grow very well.
When I get the time, I hope to work out what is best for the VFT's also, but for now I am making the most of the sunlight el'natural.

I noticed you mentioned the "kill off" experiment working out for the most part. Any thoughts (unless I overlooked & missed it) on any effects these chemicals may be having on the plants themselves, or is it too early to tell perhaps?

Well, keep us posted! Still interested in seeing you get the upper hand on this!



I do use so called safe & "natural" controls also, for the greenhouse & garden/yard alike. For example, I still use milky-spore/disease bacteria on my lawn for japanese beetle infestation, however after years of use I am still uncertain of its effectiveness.
I have found that the pyrethrin based insecticides have provided better, more instantaneous results in "bug control". They are natural organic compounds that actually have a pretty potent insecticidal activity.

For those that are interested...
They break down on exposure to light or oxygen, oxidize to become inactivated, & so are non-persistent & biodegradable & so are rather very safe when compared to some of the stronger insecticides that used to be sold.
Pyrethrins are contained in the seed cases of the perennial plant pyrethrum (Chrysanthemum cinerariaefolium), & is considered one of the safest of all insecticides for use in food plants and is even approved for use around foodstuffs. I have read that all pyrethrins are easily hydrolyzed and degraded by stomach acids in mammals, so toxicity following ingestion by pets is very low. However, pyrethrins are dangerous for fish. (Toxicity is usually associated with applying much more of the product than directed. So care should be taken to observe direction labels when using this substance around humans and animals.)

 

[gill_za]

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply. I meant to put an update but kept postponing.

Both plants are doing ok. They keep cranking out smaller traps though. The yellowing/browning of the leaves seems to have stopped. Surprisingly one of the plants (that seems the smallest of the two) produced a flower stalk which is about 3" in height now. I'm going to cut it off today as I don't want to overstress the plant with flowering.

Regarding the pests. I have not seen them in the water from the replanted VFT's yet. But just yesterday I top watered my S. purpurea and watched a million of the little 1-2mm thinner than hair worms wash out. They prefer to swim in water and don't go to the bottom of the tray. I also saw one larger one about 4mm worm that moves on the bottom of the tray and does not move/look like the rest of them. Very prominent, easily noticeable. Surprisingly the Sarracenia is doing well and keeps producing new pitchers steadily. So I don't know what is going on here.

Update to the treatment that I tried:
After about 4 days from the initial treatment small hair-thin worms were dead in both treated containers and were alive (although reduced) in both untreated containers. I saw the larger worm (described previously) in the treated container. So the treatment worked on the small nematodes and didn't on the rest of the occupants.
I have yet to try the chemical on the live plant, and will probably do it over this weekend.
So far I was trying it on the water that washed off from the bottom of the pots (adding solution with chemical directly to water with worms).


So after all this I'm starting to suspect that these worms were not the reason for my plants' problems. I have also started to suspect that it had something to do with the plastic pots they were in. These pots I bought in a dollar store and I remember that they smelled kinda funny. Additionally I have three other plants (non CP) in the same pots and they are not doing well at all, while one of the similar plants in a clay pot growing like crazy. So, something could be leaching from the plastic killing the plants. Oh well, just a theory. I will continue the de-wormer experiment still because it seems to work.

Additionally I have contemplated "infesting" the pots with nematodes with Utricularia sandersonii to control the pests. Even if the worms are not the problem here I still don't want them in my plants!!!!

On the good note this thought me not to keep all plants in one tray. Now infested and non-infested pots are separated from each other, and all the media used for planting gets a mandatory 24hr 1% Peroxide soaking treatment during the initial rinsing

Pictures will be here a bit later (this evening most likely),

 

[gill_za]

Pictures of the first plant:


20110604_004.jpg by gillza, on Flickr


20110604_005.jpg by gillza, on Flickr


20110604_003.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

The plant had a flower stalk which was cut right after the pictures were taken. The leaves with brown spots are remnants of pre-repotting era

Pictures of a second plant:


20110604_006.jpg by gillza, on Flickr


20110604_007.jpg by gillza, on Flickr


20110604_008.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

This plant also had a flower stalk which I noticed during picture taking session.

 

[GregNY]

Nice job you seem to be on the right track for recovery.

With so many new traps seeming to develop I think I'd cut away those that are yellow, browning, dying just to be done with them...

 

[gill_za]

Nice job you seem to be on the right track for recovery.

With so many new traps seeming to develop I think I'd cut away those that are yellow, browning, dying just to be done with them...

Thank you Cut them off after the photoshoot

As I have mentioned previously I have set up the poison_nematodes_with_dewormer experiment and chose a pot with bunch of young VFT that were separated from the initial plant when I bought it. This plant shows no signs of illness but does have nematodes in the soil (as confirmed by multiple observation of the water coming from the pot after top watering). Since I already know that this chemical works on the nematodes, the purpose of this experiment is to check the effect this chemical has on the plants, particularly on VFTs.

Experiment Date: 04Jun2011

The sacrificial plants:


20110604_021.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

The poison:


20110604_016.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

Active ingredients:

I looked up the info on this drug. It works by paralyzing the nematodes.


20110604_023.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

Solution:

One tablet dissolved in 100mL of DI water.


20110604_017.jpg by gillza, on Flickr

The entire solution was used to top water the plant. Runoff water is collected and kept in the tray with the pot.

Updates to follow

 

[GregNY]

Interesting experiment. This is for possible treatment of soil bound parasites correct??

Seems like some pretty tough stuff

 

[gill_za]

Interesting experiment. This is for possible treatment of soil bound parasites correct??

Seems like some pretty tough stuff

This is an investigation of a relatively cheap root parasitic nematodes treatment
An ad hoc setup.

BTW Update: 05Jun2011

I started this experiment yesterday. The wiggly little worms are all paralyzed and lying really still No movement, whatsoever, but this was confirmed previously anyway. I'll keep checking how the plants are doing daily.

 

[GrowinOld]

Gill_za,

VERY good experiment you have going.
Nice to see someone here willing and patient enough to gain experience and wisdom!

You have my respect!
Do keep us posted.
Good Growing!
Paul

PS: Nice job on transplanting! Plants seem to like it!

If the VFT's show signs of distress, think about flushing them out with clean water. Once the treatment is done, it may not be necessary to keep the "de-wormer" around. But indeed, you are on the cutting edge of learning what it does, and whether flushing it out is necessary.
Good experimenting & good follow-thru!
The techniques you learn here may become tomorrow's accepted methods! Keep up the good work!

 

[gill_za]

Gill_za,

VERY good experiment you have going.
Nice to see someone here willing and patient enough to gain experience and wisdom!

You have my respect!
Do keep us posted.
Good Growing!
Paul

PS: Nice job on transplanting! Plants seem to like it!

If the VFT's show signs of distress, think about flushing them out with clean water. Once the treatment is done, it may not be necessary to keep the "de-wormer" around. But indeed, you are on the cutting edge of learning what it does, and whether flushing it out is necessary.
Good experimenting & good follow-thru!
The techniques you learn here may become tomorrow's accepted methods! Keep up the good work!

Thank you for the kind words. I do hope that it will work and not kill the plant before its over . Three days after the initial treatment I will topwater the plant to wash out the chemicals and will let it stay. On day ten this treatment will be repeated to take care of the eggs. After that If plant survives the procedure will be repeated in 30 days and that will be the last time.

In the mean time I plan on separating my sarracenia, and will test the chemical on one of the plants (it is also heavily infested).

 

[gill_za]

Update: 15June2011

Well yesterday (14June2011, 10 days after the initial experiment) the pot was drenched with 100 more mL of the de-wormer dissolved solution. In the water from the plant I saw bunch of nematodes. Right now it looks like it does not work.

The pot will be flushed in 2 days (17June2011) with DI water. Water from the pot will be checked. I suspect I will still see worms.

 

[gill_za]

Update:

22June2011
Chemical had no effect on nematodes in the soil. On 17June2011 the pot was flushed with DI water and worms were present in the water.

19June2011
I have made the 0.8% solution of Azamax (contains: azadirachtin - extract from neem cake ) following the datasheet that came with the product and flushed the pot with it.

P.S. Poor plant.

P.S.2:

---------------------------------------------------

Silva, J. C. T., Oliveira, R. D. D. L., Jham, G. N., & Aguiar, N. D. C. (2008). Effect of neem seed extracts on the development of the soybean cysts nematode. Tropical Plant Pathology, 33(3), 171-179. Retrieved from www.scopus.com

Abstract

The effect produced by neem seed extracts and a neem seed concentrate (NSC) on the mortality and development of Heterodera glycines was evaluated. Second-stage juvenile (J2) mortality produced by the extracts and NSC was determined. Soybean seedlings treated with each of the extracts (aqueous, methanolic and hexane) were inoculated with J2 and the number of females and eggs per root system determined after 30 days. Both the hexane extracts were ineffective as no statistical difference (P>0.05) in J2 mortality was observed between them and the control. No statistical difference (P>0.05) in J2 mortality (>98%) was obtained between the water extracts and methanol extract at 1000 mg L-1 treatments. The J2 percentage of mortality exponentially increased with the NSC dosages (R2=0.94). LD 50 was 42.6 mg L-1 for NSC on H. glycines. In the greenhouse experiment, the highest reduction in the number of females was 84%, obtained with the aqueous (41.6 mg L-1) and methanolic extracts (1000 mg L-1). In the same way, the highest reduction in the number of eggs, of about 90%, was obtained with the same extracts. Thus, using aqueous extracts is more suitable than the remaining extracts in field conditions. The activities of the methanol and NSC extracts were attributed to the seven tetranortritepenoids (azadirachtin H, azadirachtin A, azadirachtin B, desacetylnimbin, desacetylsalannin, nimbin and salannin) identified by reverse phase high performance liquid chromatography. Copyright by the Brazilian Phytopathological Society.
---------------------------------------------------

From Azamax MSDS:
Specific gravity of solution = 0.985g/mL
% API in solution = 1.2%
My solution prep:
5mL Azamax diluted up to 639mL with DI water (got the 639mL from the datasheet that came with the product)
5mL Azamax has a mass of 4.925g (converted using specific gravity) 1.2% of which is the API, thus the mass of API in 5mL of Azamax is 59.1mg
Final concentration = 59.1mg / 0.639L = 92.49mg/L
This is almost twice the recommended dose. I will repeat the soaking with the same prep on 29Jun2011

 

[GrowinOld]

Hey Gill,

Read thru things here again, & was wondering if the simple route of rinsing off the plants, soaking & rinsing routine a few times & then re-planting with new media & pot (& then isolating it from other infested pots/plants) resulted in eradication, or if the "buggers" returned in time.

I have liked watching your progress with the chemical de-wormers/neem/etc. routes. While I haven't yet had problems with them (knock on wood) it is good to see people are willing to look into different ways of dealing with the various bugs & problems growers are encountering.

I will look in again in a few weeks to see how the plants are doing. (The plants are actually looking a lot better after the re-potting, which I have found to generally be the case when dealing with infestations. If nothing else, it can help give a plant the upper hand again, at least for a time.)

Good Luck!

 

[scottychaos]

Im not sure if all this experimenting with the worms is an attempt to fix the original problem (the yellowing of leaves) or if its a "just because" experiment..an attempt to kill the worms simply because they are there, and perhaps they might be harming the plants..

IMO the yellowing of the leaves probably has nothing to do with the worms..the problem is obvious..
its because they are being grown indoors.

Scot