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Thread: Dormancy

  1. #41
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    I have only rekindled this hobby since last June. I had mine sit on a windowsill from June until mid- Novemeber, so it experienced a natural decreased photoperiod, while the temp decrease was not as pronounced, getting into the 50's. I then it themhome from work and placed them in between the inner and outer kitchen windows, so it would experience more coolness but be buffered by the kitchen. It still wasn't cold enough. So I put them in the screned in porch. It got colder for them; so much so that the media froze one night. I know they can take light frosts, but we were in the midst of a cold snap, here in Reading, PA. Then I moved them to the butter keeper, where it was cold but stable for most of the rest of its dormancy. Then back to the lab fridge for another couple weeks, followed by the cool window sill, before sending them outside. All stopped discernible growth and 3 o 4 plants flowered. What I am getting at is that my area is just a little too cold to leave ouside for 12 months, without significant mulching. Should I clean them off and put them in wet paper towels when they have already fallen asleep or just before then?

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]No, I haven't taken the opportunity to read your back-posts. Believe it or not, being an adult, I have a host of responsiblities that you are not even aware of yet.
    Ok the, part of being a adult is also making wise decisions and think of your actions before you do them... and if you don't have time to reread someones posts, don't assume something about people even though I repeated requests twice to reread back posts about information about me. I guess there are more stuff adults can learn about everyday


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]A fungus strain that is resistant to neem oil will not be prevented from germinating. Hello? Your reasoning is faulty and you're not paying attention. You also have a lot to learn about the realities of how biological life operates--especially from an evolutionary standpoint.

    Also, as a PREventative--its being used unnecessarily in most cases. And if its being used "when disease is just starting to show"--then its not PREventative. Having trouble keeping up with yourself?
    First off, this is not my reasoning... go on any website and type in Neem oil and it will say the say the same thing I just said...
    Second off- Neem oil works on a basis where the oil coats the surface of the leaf/plant and inhibits the spores to germinate, and if there already is an infection neem oil prevents fungal spores from penetrating plant tissues and slows the advance of fungal diseases.
    So again, neem oil doesn't work on a basis like any other fungcides (Ortho) and other antibiotics where they contain poisins/chemicals that kill certain strains of Fungus. It is just a natural way of using the products propeties to slowly suffocate the problem and prevent future spores from occuring again.
    It is like saying we can become resistant to drownng!

    Yeah, I know you are probably going to say something about how evolution kicks into play and the fungus might be able to breath in oil and germinate
    I don't think that is possible, one because they would already die before they got a chance to germinate and build resisitance, and second because since this product comes from seeds of trees, don't you think that a fungus would already become resistant to Neem oil over thousands of years of exposure? Nope, if it was like that then Neem oil wouldn't even be out right now... and it would be rendered as a useless product because some spores are resistant to it... the last time I check this stuff is still used by alot of rose growers, including my mom and there hasn't been a resistant spore that I know of...

    Also, as a prevenative wouldn't you be looking for those qualties? If it was some other type, you would have to continually have to reapply the product, while Neem oil lasts much longer as a prevenative and inhibits the hatching of Spores.

    Having trouble trying to keep up with your self know?...
    I thought you people where \"Plant Geeks\", Look at me Now...

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  3. #43
    naja02's Avatar
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    Hi peter,

    Gee, isn't this Fun? Schools out for the summer and all.....

    "Ok the, part of being a adult is also making wise decisions and think of your actions before you do them... " Didn't we already cover the part about Pulling the LOG out of your OWN eye, before you ATTEMPT to pluck the SPLINTER out of your neighbor's eye? Oh, yeah, that was in PM---would you like for me to forward you another copy of it, so You can read it again? You are the Master of not thinking about your actions, but then again--your not an adult, so I guess that makes it ok for you. Once You do become an adult, one thing you will learn is that a request--is just that--a REQUEST. You don't always get what you want or "request". Tis Life.

    Additionally, If you think I am going to do a search and sit here and read up to 335 of your posts--you're sadly mistaken. You do the same song and dance regularly--There's no need to "Research" you. Your the same song over and over. Circular logic based on your own convenience and need. You jump from this to that and back again when the NEED suits YOU. Maybe you should decide which side of your mouth you wish to speak from and then you might leave a better overall impression on people. You've already been pubicly called a "Know it all" by one long-term member here, yet you haven't learned anything. You are definitely as wise as your years.

    So, in an effort to discontinue entertaining a bored, out of school kid--I am going to give You the last word. We all know how important it is to you, so I'm not going to fight you for it, debate it with you or make any kind of issue with you about it--its Yours!

    My only advice, which is worth exactly what you're paying for it, is: Make it good. Actually put some thought into it, because the field is wide open and Your words will be written in cyberstone for as long as these archives are available.

    oh, BTW, resistant to drowning? If there were an evolutionary need and the time---what's the problem? They're called gills. We came from there, they say--the problem with going back?

    Enjoy, peter. You're center stage in the spotlight and all eyes are on You!

  4. #44
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Yeesh.

    Talk is cheap. I say stick one of your plants in the fridge without using any Neem oil and see what happens.

    You can always argue again in the spring.

  5. #45

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    Ok, all eyes are on me and I will end this post once and for all with my last post on this subject which will explain everything-

    I never said I was a know it all, and never will be by any means... I know when I am wrong and have delt with it and accepted defeat at times (Like the fridge dormacy issue)... Neem oil will always be a good choice over any other chemicals for fungus. It is near impossible for microscopic spores to germinate with a layer of oil covering over it.
    Regarding about the people and water situation, like I said in the beginning, all the fungus's would DIE before they had a chance to evolve, and same goes with my saying that people aren't able to breathe in water. Before they could evolve into a super human and have gills, the whole people population would be wiped out before the chance of evolving, heck you think I am a kid, but AP Biology wasn't taught for nothing. So Naja02 once again I have beated what you just said.
    About researching my facts, again you have went back on the words you have said, I HAVE done research on Neem Oil and got my info from there, so do your RESEARCH before you speak.
    Now about why my plants died during dormacy- it was BECAUSE of the Peat moss that I have used, still don't believe me? I will send out a sample of the sand that I collected Naja02. I sent some to Scotts to help with their improvment of their NEW peat moss on the market now.
    So I ADMIT that I was wrong about fridge dormacy, and will definetly try it this season.
    BTW, just to let you know, I would of still posted these posts even though I still went to school, it doesnt' take me that long to write these posts and I am always on here after school anyways after tennis practice...
    The thing is you say that I am a know it all, but I have beaten you in every conversation we have had... Neem oil, it is extremly difficult for a fugi spore to build resistance to a product that can not be built a resistance too. The 2.00 VFT bulb thing, I am sure that he still made a profit out of the sale and you have even admitted to it too. In this post, it is a fact that if you have the right weather to house a VFT outside during dormacy do it, and is right. But if you have less then Ideal conditions or just plain lazy, then Fridge or some other method is not as good, but good if there is no other choice. I am sure that I am pretty right about that...
    So you see I never think I am a now it all. If it is right then it is right! and I am not going to back down to say different just because some other people think so otherwise... Now regarding about Spec calling me a now it all, he himself was a little stuburn about certain issues and got banned from this forum for that. Any more remarks Naja02?
    Now regarding about the PM, the purpose of them is to keep them private but since you brung it up on purpose to try to make me look like a bad guy I will make a long story short-
    We baisically got in a argument on how Naja02 bought four extremely rare VFT cultivars that anyone would gladly pay double or even triple for it if they knew about them. Well, three out of the four died and the one is in ok conditions.
    I happened to order the same plant (two of them) and one is growing like a WEED making close to 1" traps and the other, still growing decently but still in alittle stress.
    Well, all I said was that buying four extra rare plants was going alittle too far when ordering them (I say two is enough), especially when not alot of people are growing it and it isn't lets say a begginners plant by all means. Then Naja02 said something about how economics came into play, but I held my ground and stated that you don't need to buy so many especially when other more experienced people who could of probably kept the other two alive, and bring their poplarity up making it available to MORE people and lowering the price of the whole Face value of Venus Flytrap cultvars in the future and available to less fortunate kids who don't have the money but have the KNOWLEDGE to grow these plants just as well as any other 40 year old who started growing them at the same time. Well, Naja02 still thought that it had to deal with economics and started rambleing on about how it was economics and how he had "Adult Responsibilities" , WOW, you are an adult... So WHAT! I have moms and dads that never complain about anything... I am just sick of how adults think they are better and treat little kids that have grown these plants just as long as the adult did like crap!
    I don't see how that PM conversation is being a "Doing your Research before you speak" statement...? And I never read the part about splinters in the eye...? in the PM's.
    Still, before you judge someone, read the facts and if you DON'T have time to read because of your "Adult Responsibilities" keep your mouth quite and at least read the last few posts on this post which I mentioned but still you acuse...
    [QUOTE]There's no need to "Research" you. Your the same song over and over. Circular logic based on your own convenience and need. You jump from this to that and back again when the NEED suits YOU. [QUOTE]
    Arrrg... again you have said stuff that you have not known and just kinda guessing based on ONE persons comment!

    BTW did you read this little blurb yet a few posts back?-
    [QUOTE]Ok, Naja02 if you read any of my other posts in the Venus Flytrap thread, you would know that I am a person who goes against the books. The only reason I wrote specific info based on Barry Rices site was to disprove ScottyChaos's information which contridicted most of what he said. [QUOTE]
    Now, here is what you said-
    [QUOTE]
    Circular logic based on your own convenience and need. You jump from this to that and back again when the NEED suits YOU. Maybe you should decide which side of your mouth you wish to speak from and then you might leave a better overall impression on people. You've already been pubicly called a "Know it all" by one long-term member here, yet you haven't learned anything. You are definitely as wise as your years. [QUOTE]

    Wow, looks like you did some researching there... if you did not read any of my other posts then why would you assume and think you know that I "Jump from this to that and back again when the NEED suits YOU"? Yep, just some more blabbering there.


    Now, I officially hand the bar back over to you Naja02, again write what you please but remember it will be here until it is deleted as time passes, so every word counts.

    Sincerely,
    Peter
    I thought you people where \"Plant Geeks\", Look at me Now...

    Growing List-
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  6. #46

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    Woah! There is a lot of heat going on here! Thanks for the comments regarding my abilities by the way.

    When it comes to growing plants, individual experimentation is always to be encouraged, not discouraged. Experience is a fickle teacher: bad experiences can lead to generalizing that your failure will also be anothers failure, and this might not always be the case. On the contrary side, successes may also lead you to assume that what works for you will work for another. Not always so either.

    Published information always runs the risk of becoming dogma, especially if the writer is valued for his skills. But dogma limits the willingness to experiment, and without experimentation you can never know what is optimal for YOU.

    The advice regarding cold temps being REQUIRED for dormancy is perhaps a bit to strict, but it does allow for a standard success. The fridge method is one such strategy that can produce very good results. This doesn't imply that other methods will certainly fail. It also doesn't guarantee 100% success.

    I an not familiar with neem oil. It may be a very good product and might be effective as a fungus preventative. I was thinking more along the lines of Cleary's which I believe functions differently. Experimentation is a good idea in all cases, and never to be discouraged although best done with spare material.

    I always go back to the question, "How does it grow in habitat", and I try to duplicate those conditions. In NC, there are cokd winters, and there are warm winters. The plants have seen these things many times in the course of their evolutionary history, and they have adapted. What they never see is any light after dark. The conversion of P440 to its isomolecule P220 in the presence of light is like a switch turning on and off gene transcription. This molecule is like a key that fits a lock, but only one form of the molecule fits that lock. When the key is in the lock, it allows for the production of an inhibitory enzyme that results in new growth not elongating. It affects many plant processes, including the formation of resting buds in trees, and leaf abcision. Without the production of this inhibitory enzyme, growth is the natural order. In sunlight, P440 degrades into P220 which no longer fits the lock, and the inhibitory enzyme is therefore turned OFF, and the plants grow. This isomolecule converts from one form to the other, but it is sensitive to any light after dark, which is why short day plants exposed to light after dark will not flower, and why Xmas cactus must be protected from such interuptions in the dark cycle. The same holds true for VFT's. If you are going to experiment with a warmer dormancy, it is important to limit such interuptions in the dark cycle. Exposure to additional light after dark will affect this mechanism which is one of the most elegant in the plant kingdom. My friend in Brazil grows his plants outside where these interuptions never happen. The same is true in Tony's greenhouse, and in the Green Swamp. This is why I say that dormancy is light driven, and not temperature dependent. A window sill may or may not meet this requirement.

    Plants may have an "optimal dormancy" which does not mean that less optimal strategies will fail. Cold is part of the optimal dormancy, but it is light that determines when the plants will resume growth, not temperature. Some species are more sensitive than others regarding this mechanism.

    SO bear all this in mind. In the end you will see there is no real ONE solution. Always keep an open mind to other possibilities and protocol. Experiment, observe, and report: but remember it does not serve to be too attached to your own, or others ideas.

    Older folk have more experience , that's true, but remember experience as I said is a fickle teacher, and can lead to dogma based on incorrect assumptions. It is difficult to remain aware of and control all the variations that can affect plant growth.

    Younger folk have less experience, and are often willing to try new protocols, which may or may not work, but it is this spirit of experimentation that can greatly advance growing techniques for us all. This is why experiment on their part is to be encouraged.

    So , lets leave off with the hard feelings. We are all in this together.

    Peace,

    Tamlin
    "Grow More, Share More"

  7. #47
    naja02's Avatar
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    Hi Tamlin,

    I understand the gist of what You are saying, but my question then would be: What kind/amount/duration of light are You talking about?

    In others words, I can understand that street and/or security lights close by might have a negative effect. However, are You also talking about something as simple and short as a vehicle pulling in or out?

    In my particular situation, the plants would not be effected by interior lights, street lights, security lights, etc. and even a vehicle coming or going would not shine any light DIRECTLY onto the plants---any side-glow would be very limited in duration also.

    So, any pointers in that area would be very helpful to me......

    TIA

  8. #48

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    naja02,

    Well I haven't actually done any experiments, so I have no data to share as regards how much light. For some short day flowering plants even a single lamp left on after dark will retard the flowering process, which is why you have to keep Xmas cacti in a dark room after September to get flowers by Christmas. The same levels light can inhibit pygmy Drosera gemmae production, as did a streetlight in one example I have run across. I would say to try to limit the light as much as is possible, and to consider it as a sort of experiment to test the theory. It may be that the plants will be unaffected or highly affected by any additional light after sunset. To be on the safe sidfe I would aim for the optimal, and also please do noyt risk any rare material on the experiment. Like I said, I believe the theory will prove true but I would hate to see lost plants if I am wrong. The rare stuff I would put in the fridge still since this protocol has been proven effective by many trials. I hope this helps resolve this issue. Dormancy is a complicated affair and one that is not all cut and dried. Ther eis leeway with most species experiencing dormancies and experiment is to be encouraged. Just remember to report your findings even if negative. Negative results can be just as important as positive ones.
    "Grow More, Share More"

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