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Dormancy

  • #21
Also, Peter, When Scott talked about the 60º F. windowsill, HE WAS REFERRING TO THE TEMPERATURE, NOT WHERE IT WAS!

Barry Rice, any imput?

VTPTFATHAVFT, actually on the coast it gets pretty darn cold... All of my lowland nepenthes died last year because the greenhouse got under 32º F.! Thats a common temperature on the coast!
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I didnt think the greenhouse would cool down to the outside temperature though!
 
  • #22
[b said:
Quote[/b] (peter @ June 20 2004,1:27)]But if temps stay much cooler then that then the plants enter a real dormacy, so lighting isn't really as big of an issue.
Anyways if someone with temps in the 52* max put their plants in the garage then wouldn't it be warmer like in the 60's or above?  So temps would be a little too warm there for dormacy.

Thanks
You just contradicted everything you were trying to tell us within the past few days.

As many people may have noticed, I do not tolerate Know-It-Alls
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Especially when they're wrong
 
  • #23
Opps, sorry I ment in the 65's (Just edited it).  Ok, I guess I went a little overbord with the whole dormacy thing.  Sorry you guys.
The 92 fish, if you want to do the refrigerator thing go ahead.  But if you want to minimize the risks of diseases (Maybe my fridge is just contaminated with ?), then outside is the way to go.  But what ever works for you, and tell us what you decide to do in the end ok?  
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Just from last dormacy here is what died in my fridge-
15- mature Venus Flytrap Typicals
1- D. Binita
2- Nice sized Judith Hindle
2- small D. "Dentate"
1- small D. "Akai Ryu"
1- medium Sarracenia Hybrid
See my point now?
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The Typicals were some of my prized pocessions they where huge!
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But my point to all those posts is that if weather permits, outside is the way to go if you want a stronger plant for next year.  
We should have a poll maybe....
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,

Peter
 
  • #24
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Spectabilis73 @ June 19 2004,4:27)]VTPTFATHAVFT, actually on the coast it gets pretty darn cold... All of my lowland nepenthes died last year because the greenhouse got under 32º F.! Thats a common temperature on the coast!
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 I didnt think the greenhouse would cool down to the outside temperature though!
Ok, I understand, but my point was that if your winter temps are too high, fridge dormancy is for you. Right.
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  • #25
http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin....;t=8511

It explains almost everything about dormancy, which dormancy you use. etc.

Conclusion: If you CANT get your temps low enough for a dormancy because of your house, your enviroment/where you live use fridge dormancy.
If you CAN get your temps low enough for dormancy, put it in the appropriate place.

Hope that helps to clear all this arguing, fighting, misconceptions
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Good luck to everyone.
 
  • #26
92nd Fish, where do you live?
Do you live in England which is in the U.S, or do you
live in England which is in Europe? Well, which England?
All the advice I gave for dormacy was if you lived in Europe England.
 
  • #27
Ok now you all went and got my attention
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No more bashing eachother for using different methods of dormancy.

Dionaea simply need a rest period. Fridges work, Garages work, Outdoors work, Unheated rooms work etc etc etc etc. It all depends on your own growing situation. As long as temperatures are cool and everything else is in balance. My plants in the greenhouse don't go below 55 ever and they go through all the seasonal growth changes for a happy VFT and grow just fine year after year.

If you want to use a fridge use a fridge.. the temps are so cold the plant doesn't grow at all and doesn't need light.
If you live in a climate that is nice and cool but rarely freezes.. keep them outside.. they will grow slowly all Winter like the plants in my green house so will still need nice bright light and moisture but will get the rest they need.

blah blah blah...
now keep it civil!

Tony
 
  • #28
Ok, I re-edited all the posts.  I want to officially say that I am sorry to anyone that I annoyed in this post.  I truely mean it too!
Sometimes my brain just goes into arguing mode and all those other things go out of consideration and that is when....
First, off I will promise from now on I will talk in a more civilized manner and will take everyones oppinion into consideration.  I guess I did kind of contradicted myself, where in one post I stated that what works for one person might now work the best for the next.  
But when taking into consideration of the temperatures, I did do some research before posting information.  While searching through the internet I found an article that mentioned that, Venus Flytrap populations actually did much better then in their home state.  These places included much of Florida, California, and some other warmer places.  So I then looked at the averages of the areas and notices that temps didn't tip below the 50's for very long, or even at all.  In North Carolina I forgot to mention the Night Temps for the days, that is probably why the temperatures was on the high side for my average temp of NC.  But, again according to Barry Rice which Scottychaos gave me a link to he metioned that as long as temps don't go above 75* then everything will be fine.  That I might have to disagree with him a little, because in Mighigan temperatures right now are in the 75's and the plants are slowly putting out their "Summer" leaves.  So that is why I decided that 65* was a safe choice to deal with.
Spectabilis73, with the sun shining on the plants, I don't think that the plants would heat up that much.  But, I also forgot to take into account the wind chill which brings the overall temp of 53* down a little more even.  92 fish, for the 53* is that the night temps or just the daily average of both combined?  

I think that reason that my plants don't do so swell in the fridge is because my mom doesn't let me use Dangerous Fungcides which could have the possibility of contaminating the food.  So Neem oil and other natural products are my only option.  
I never really said that you had to put a plant still potted in the fridge.   All I simply said was that it would help the plants health if you have space and can fit in a pot or two.  I think this doesn't go so much for Venus Flytraps, But I do know that Sarracenia's do alot of their root growing in the winter.  Anyways, I don't really see why putting dirt in the fridge would be that unsanitary, doesn't our vegetables come unwashed somwhat anyways?  I would think that chemicals in the fungicides would cause more harm then a little peat moss.
For the lighting issue in the fridge, I think that with all the leaves/traps cut off, a plant cant really preform photosynthysis anyways.
Ok, I can't really argue about the fridge dormacy since I have only done it two times.    
(P.S. Spectabilis73, before commenting on what I said in the last posts on dormacy, read the information links that scottychaos reffered to)

I guess there are good things about the Fridge dormacy though, here are the pros that I can think of-
- Less worrying about watering
- Just less taking care of overall



Again, sorry for everything I've caused ,
Peter
 
  • #29
Hi Peter,

In all honesty---it sounds like you are doing something wrong--if You are having that much trouble with fridge dormancy. It works great for me and many others.

Here are some thoughts:

1) check the temps at the location in your fridge where the plants will actually be. Micro-enviroments occur throughout your fridge---bottom is colder than top, etc.

2) Here's one thing that I have never heard mentioned on these boards that may make a difference: What TYPE of bags that You put your plants into for dormancy. I use zippable SANDWHICH bags, NOT freezer bags. Why? Air flow and moisture exchange. The only real difference between sandwhich bags and freezer bags is the %age of a chemical (the long name of which I don't recall) that inhibits air flow and moisture exchange. Freezer bags have a greater %age of this chemical--allowing LESS air flow and moisture exchange. Creating a more stagnant environment--enhancing fungal growth.

I don't have any problems with the fridge dormancy method. I do bareroot (roots washed), entirely wrapped (untrimmed, except for dead/dying leaves/traps/etc) in damp paper towels, in sandwhich bags, in the top of the fridge. I see some fungal "spots" on the paper towels, but I don't worry about it and they all pull through fine. And grow like weeds in the spring/summer.

If you are having large losses with the fridge method---You are missing something.

BTW, I don't use a fungicide.

HTH
 
  • #30
I had four VFT's in my butter keeper for a month of its dormancy, but not enclosed in a bag. The fridge has a fan to circulate air and attempt to keep the air temp uniform. I had no problems NOT putting them in bags. Was I just lucky? Three out of four bloomed and all four came through dormancy witjout any discernible problems.
 
  • #31
Hi jimscott,

Honestly, I don't know. Some put their plants in the fridge potted. I have way too many for that--unless I want to buy another fridge   lol.
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But for those that DO use bags--try ziplock sandwich bags, if you've been having problems.

Hi peter,

I think you'll have a LOT better success if You just skip the "Neem oil and other natural products" all together. My guess is that they are whats killing your plants.

I don't use any fungicide at all, and most sources I've come across say its an O-P-T-I-O-N, not a requirement. This last winter I had a 100% success rate with fridge dormancy on about 20 VFTs.

I see some fungal spots  on the paper towels, but I don't sweat it, and everything comes out fine.

This is the long and short of what I do and how I do it:

I gently unpot the plants, rinse them in the sink to remove as much dirt as possible. Wrap them entirely--leaves and all--in damp-to barely wet paper towels, put them in ziplock sandwich bags in the top of the fridge and come back in 3 months. I may open the bags once or twice for air exchange---I may not. Just depends.

When many people are having success with something and You are not--it just means that You are doing something improper and need to re-evaluate each step. In this case, I would say u need to eliminate one step: Neem Oil et al.

All the reading that you are doing is great, but life will teach you that E-X-P-E-R-I-E-N-C-E is the teacher. "Book Knowledge" is only a tool. Experience teaches your class. I've learned this the hard way. I'm not one to just follow along behind the others and just do what they do. I'm always looking for some "Better" way of doing things. After many failures---one learns to pay attention to what others do, how they do it and WHY!  
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 By being open now to both sides of the fence I feel that I am in a better position to make "Continual Process Improvements" on whatever the endeavor. I'm probably wrong, but it sure sounds like progress!  
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Anyway, here's a thought for You: If You want to try my method--use some riskable plants this winter, and do what You feel is best for your more valuable plants. You can email me at any time with any questions that You may have on it, and I've no doubt that there are plenty of others here that would be willing to offer info.

You've done TOOOO much reading and are putting WAY too much thought into all of this. I know that sounds crazy, but this is the voice of Experience tapping you on the shoulder. Life moves towards life. If you give it the room to move, to do its thing, it will move in the direction that you want it to. You're smothering it with all your "Thought" and "Knowledge". Give it some room.

Gee, wish someone would have shared those thoughts with me along time ago. I wouldn't have listened  
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, but that seed might have sprouted a little sooner.  
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  • #32
This discussion confuses me.  I had a bunch of vfts (about 8 plants) growing indoors for about 3 years.  I left them in a windowsill all year round--I live in New Hampshire, USA.  So, the winters are pretty cold, but the house is heated so the vfts stayed around 60F, at least, during the winters.  So, they couldn't have gone dormant.  I never had a problem.  

Then, I transplanted them into a window box and let them stay outside for a summer.  They loved it!  Grew and grew and grew.  I didn't know how to bring them in for the winter because the window box was so big (can't put it in the fridge, and didn't want the window box in the house).  So, I did what was suggested here.  I put them in the garage (unheated).  They died!!!

I have a new batch this year and they are growing great in their 3" pots.  I plan to transplant them into the same windowbox.  But I am nervous about this winter.  I certainly won't put them in the garage!  So, I plan on leaving them in a window sill somewhere where the box they are in won't look too wierd.

Any thoughts as to why they died in the garage?
 
  • #33
I don't know what is affecting my plants in the fridge... I don't think that neem oil is really the problem. Here is what happens when I left some of them in the fridge last year- I unpotted my plants, and sprayed it with fungicide (neem oil). Then I put all of them in a ziplock baggie and left them in the fridge. First what happened was all the sudden the plants just slowly got mushy from the inside and spreaded outwards killing the plants. I don't even know if it was some type of Fungus or what... I must of done something wrong though. Maybe this year I will take all of your guys advice and experiment them on a couple of plants to see what happens.
My plan is to stick all of them in the fridge when it goes below freezing outside, and when it drops to severe temps were the garage is below freezing I will them put all of my plants in a fridge for a week or two until the cold spell is gone.
 
  • #34
I have a friend in Brazil who grows them with success without any cold dormancy whatsoever.  Understand that dormancy is really determined mostly by daylength.  My friends plants never stop growing, but the growth becomes slower and the leaves and traps smaller.  As daylength increases, so do the size of these parts.  Plants flower with success and set seed.
Certainly cold is an added benefit: all processes slow down in cold conditions, and nutrient reserves which are produced in the growing season are conserved in cold conditions resulting in rapid spring growth.  What is important is to limit the photoperiod, and keep it as close to natural daylength as possible.  The fridge will work for small numbers of plants.  I would remove the bulbs from their pots carefully, protecting the roots as much as possible from breakage, and trim off the leaves since the main route of water loss is through the leaf stoma were I to use this method (I don't).  I discourage the use of fungicide unless there are obvious instances of mold.  Routine use of fungicide does little more than to select for tougher strains of mold, and eventually the product will not be effective.  I would also bag the bulbs after wrapping in a bit of moist LFS (live if possible) as this moss has natural aniseptic qualities that discourages fungal growth.  In my fridge, uncovered food dries out within a week.

Last winter, my plants overwintered in nearly aquatic conditions with my Sarracenia just above freezing with not a single loss, and I will be experimenting along these lines more this season.  Water does not seem to affect my plants, and apparently mold cannot grow underwater.

I find naja02's comments to be spot on, especially regarding the use of book learning, and adding anything to the mix which does not need to be there.

My 2 cents worth.
 
  • #35
Hi Tamlin,

Thanx for the support.

After your comments here and Tony's earlier in this thread---I am seriously considering trying a windowsill dormancy. I have 14 different VFT "Cultivars" with 2 more on the way, and, frankly, the thought of putting some of them in the fridge scares me! LOL I am in zone 7, and an interior window box is something that I've been considering for a while. If I could just leave them there all year round---That would be Great!

Maybe through all this hoopla we can discover that the VFT dormancy isn't quite what it once seemed.
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Hi peter,

Here's an added thought on the whole dormancy thing:

You COULD try your "fridge" experiments and just kind of skip this yrs dormancy for your more valued plants. Do a windowsill dormancy in the coldest room/window of your house and you wouldn't be entirely skipping the dormancy. Skipping dormancy is a viable option and would give you an opportunity to experiment and hopefully find a fridge system this yr that works for you.

I've been seriously considering skipping this yrs dormancy on my more sensitive VFTs, but this window box idea is looking better and better for me. I can do it quickly and inexpensively.


Hmmmmmmmm..........
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  • #36
Ok, Naja02 if you read any of my other posts in the Venus Flytrap thread, you would know that I am a person who goes against the books. The only reason I wrote specific info based on Barry Rices site was to disprove ScottyChaos's information which contridicted most of what he said.
I grow most of my plants based on my experience with them, and only the basics of what I read. If you don't believe what I just said, go back a couple forums and read my past posts.
I think I have figures out what killed alot of my plants last year- alot of them were in the dreaded Scotts peat moss which contains bad sand as all of you guys know from back posts. During dormacy I think their roots died, then leading up to the plants. I didn't find out about this whole Scotts peat moss ordeal until this spring, and was able to save some plants that were weakened tremendously by root death.
So maybe Fridge Dormacy isn't so bad after all... maybe I will give it another shot this year without using the Scotts peat moss
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  • #37
Hi peter,

My comments above were not advice to "go against the books", nor was it to go "with" the books.
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A few more years and a few more projects down the road---you may begin to understand exactly what those comments mean.

Hopefully, You are correct on the Scott's peat moss and your problem will be solved for now and the future. However, Tamlin's thoughts/advice on not using ANY fungicide is very valid and the same reasoning applies to the overuse of antibiotics with humans. The short of it is: The unnecessary use of fungicide is just causing natural selection for fungi that we won't have a cure for. Eventually it will arrive and then what are You going to do? Samething as everybody else: Dread the fungus attack and watch your plants die. With antibiotics though: It will be your children, your spouse, your family and friends. Maybe yourself, But its nothing to worry about, so sleep tight.
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  • #38
Naja02: At what point do you remove them from the soil and wrap them in moist towels? Is it when they are already asleep?
 
  • #39
Again, I already know what those little comments you write mean, did you follow my directions and reread back posts regarding about this issue?
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The thing is Naja02, I ONLY use neem oil for a reason
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As a fungicide neem is mainly used as a preventative and when disease is just starting to show. It coats the leaf surface which in turn prevents the germination of the fungal spores, so actually it doesn't kill the fungus like other dangerous fungicides it is a preventative so Fungus can't build a resistance to it.  Now if I was to use Ortho or some other thing it would be a different story.

Regarding about the Scotts thing, I've contacted them a while back and they said that they would look into the whole quality issue. Know at homedepots and Walmarts you should notice new bags that look different and should have better Peat Moss without the sand.
 
  • #40
Hi jimscott,

I do it around thanksgiving as suggested. Unless the plants are under growlights with a sustained photoperiod--then the daylight/length has shortened and your house has cooled some from the warmer months. These are ques that winter/sleeptime is arriving that your plants pick up on.

I don't think I was aware of the antiseptic qualities of shpagmun moss that Tamlin mentioned--so that might be a better choice. The paper towel method that I've used worked well for me, but I am considering other options for this winter like the windowsill dormancy I mentioned trying earlier. I consider Tony and Tamlin both to be Experts in this entire CP arena, and their comments/experiences hold a lot of value for me. I have a room that I don't heat, that I will use to cool reptiles this yr. So, a widowsill setup might work really well in there for me.

In short, if your plants are exposed to the natural photoperiod, even inside---then they should have enough ques to be ready for dormancy.


Hi peter,

No, I haven't taken the opportunity to read your back-posts. Believe it or not, being an adult, I have a host of responsiblities that you are not even aware of yet.

A fungus strain that is resistant to neem oil will not be prevented from germinating. Hello? Your reasoning is faulty and you're not paying attention. You also have a lot to learn about the realities of how biological life operates--especially from an evolutionary standpoint.

Also, as a PREventative--its being used unnecessarily in most cases. And if its being used "when disease is just starting to show"--then its not PREventative. Having trouble keeping up with yourself?
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Hopefully, Scott's has corrected the problem. They are usually considered a safe choice (overall) when someone isn't sure what Brand to buy.

Per my comments: Yep! there's no doubt!
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