"doesn't need dormancy its first year"

[scottychaos]

Im concerned about all the people who believe tissue cultured VFT's dont need a dormancy their first year..
where did this idea come from?
is it actually true?

ok, VFT *seedlings*..that sprouted from seed this past spring, and are only a few months old, can maybe get away with no dormancy their first winter..but who ever said TC plants can?
I think somewhere along the line someone just *assumed* that TC plants wont need a dormancy, since they are "baby plants"..and now everyone is believeing it as a fact when there is nothing to support it..

I fear it is likely a dangerous myth.
and many first time VFT owners are not going to give their new VFT's a dormancy because they think its ok..
(and it also gives people an excuse to be lazy..)
But this could lead to unnecessary death of many plants!
personally, I dont think its ok, and I think TC plants definately should get a dormancy..
they are full-size, esentially "adult" plants biologically, created from adult VFT cells, even if they did just came out of TC... and besides, you dont really know how old a VFT is when you get it..

thoughts?
has anyone ever seen actual scientific data to support the idea that TC VFT's dont need a winter dormancy their first winter?
or has everyone simply "heard it somewhere"?
the internet is a very dangerous breeding ground for myths and disinformation...I think the CP forums may have created this myth in the last few years..

Scot

 

[Pyro]

It is a slight distortion to say that TC plants do not need a dormancy their first year. Plants from TC are still in prime active growth and are always like that under the TC conditions. If a plant from TC is purchased between the months of say October and March, when the plants should normally be dormant, then it is a better idea to let them continue active growth rather than trying to force dormancy. People just generalizing this statment is what gives rise to the "myth" though most of the time I have heard it said it has been along the lines of what I just said here

 

[The Griffin]

If you have a healthy vft it can skip a year and not start to dwindle.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[peter]

Yeah, some people only give their vfts dormacy every other year with no ill effects, so it'll probably be the same for a T/C VFT. So I don't really believe it's a myth.

 

[peter]

Yeah, some people only give their vfts dormacy every other year with no ill effects, so it'll probably be the same for a T/C VFT. So I don't really believe it's a myth IMO

 

[scottychaos]

Quote[/b] (peter @ Dec. 07 2004,2:16)]Yeah, some people only give their vfts dormacy every other year with no ill effects, so it'll probably be the same for a T/C VFT.  So I don't really believe it's a myth IMO

they do?
what people do that?
who are "some people"?
do you personally know these people?
or is it again just "something I heard on the internet"?
I have never heard of anyone doing that..
and has anyone done that for say, a decade, with no ill effects?
where is the data?
so far, its all just made up..might be true, might not.
just because you "heard something" doesent mean its even remotely true..
"I heard" isnt good enough.

 

[peter]

Ok- Dean Cook, Me, and more people that I can't recall of right now. I think they are in posts way back then that have been deleted.
Sorry I did a double post...

 

[scottychaos]

well ok..I will accept something if there is good evidence!

but...I see in your profile you are 17..
honestly, how long have been doing this?
how long have you been growing VFT's?
have you done at least 2 full cycles of "every other year"?
4 full years?
and if so, the plants are still fine?
or have you just started trying this?

Scot

 

[uglypho]

Hello Scott. First year dormancy seems to be otpional for me. I prefer to let a new plant(when purchased in late summer or fall) skip dormancy so the plant can grow out quicker. Dormancy isn't as crucial as I once thought it was, panicking about when/how/what temps/fridge or outside/lights ect. I know a few growers(Brad Adler, a member here by the name of Nepsaoundthehouse, and a few other friends of the these people including myself) who grow warm-temperate plants outdoors all year in Sou Cali frostless coast in Ventura. Ventura winters have lows of 46F to 50F and highs in the 60's and 70's. Sometimes I would get plants from AU that began dormancy for the summer. I just plant the VFTs up normally and leave the plant outdoors to acclimate to the northern hemisphere seasons. I've had heat streaks in my in mid dormancy once. Temps rose to the 90's for about a week. However, no plants seemed affected. I also get hot dry Santa Ana's regularly throughout the winters and all my plants are fine. Like Brad says, enjoy growing you plants, let your plants observe and let them do what they want.

 

[jimscott]

For those of us who purchased our VFT's form a garden center such as Home Depot or Lowes, are those plants TC? Also, how old are those plants? If older than a year, did the TC growing company put them through dormancy? More importantly, is the plant "expecting" dormancy?

 

[Pyro]

Jim,

Most mass market plants arrive at places like HD and Lowes right from TC. So if you go buy one now then it would fall into the catagory of not needing dormancy.

And Scotty,

I have skipped first year dormancy for most all of my TC originated plants and never had any ill effects

 

[The Griffin]

Jim,

Not to mention(and anyone can chime in on this one)...how many places that sell tc flytraps can keep one alive for...say, six months(other than the cp dealers)?
They are fresh, trust me.
Cheers,

Joe

 

[moonflower]

i bought my VFT's from home depot in august, and save for a few dead traps thanks to those ever-so-charming mealy bugs (which are mostly gone! yay!), they do not appear to want a dormancy yet, and i wasn't planning on giving them one. they're putting out new traps left and right. why risk sticking them in the fridge just yet?

 

[scottychaos]

Quote[/b] (moonflower @ Dec. 08 2004,5:49)]why risk sticking them in the fridge just yet?

ok, good examples everyone..thanks!
maybe TC plants can skip a dormancy..

but..as to "why risk sticking them in the fridge just yet?"
you have to also consider that NOT sticking them in the fridge could be a *bigger* risk, long term, than sticking them in the fridge right now!
If you *dont* stick your plants in the fridge at all this winter, how healthy will they be by next July?..
I still say dormancy is always better than no dormancy..
even if you *think* your plants seem fine, they will likely still be better off long-term with a dormancy every winter..

you have to think in terms of years..not just "right now"..

but..if skipping is working for plants, and plants that get skipped are still alive 5 years later..then thats all well and good..
but I still think the vast majority of people who are "first dormancy skippers" are people who have had plants for less than a year..
IMO, its still a huge, and very unnecessary risk..
Scot

 

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Dec. 08 2004,1:08)]you have to also consider that NOT sticking them in the fridge could be a *bigger* risk, long term, than sticking them in the fridge right now!

Scotty, using your own argument against you, where is the proof of this statment? AFAIK there is no solid proof that skipping one dormancy is dooming your plant to a slow and miserable death in the years to come

Quote[/b] ]you have to think in terms of years..not just "right now"..

but..if skipping is working for plants, and plants that get skipped are still alive 5 years later..then thats all well and good..
but I still think the vast majority of people who are "first dormancy skippers" are people who have had plants for less than a year..
IMO, its still a huge, and very unnecessary risk..

I have had plants for 5 years so maybe you will be willing to believe me some. You want in terms of years, I have 6 VFTs that I purchased 4 years ago in the month of October. I skipped dormancy that year, growing them inside under a 16 hour photoperiod. The next spring I moved them outside and they have been outside ever since. Now granted it is not the 5 years that you requested but they are alive and well and have flowered the past 3 years and I have gotten seed each year so as far as I am concerned they are healthy and suffering no problems. I also have 3 S. purps a flava and 2 minors that skipped their first year dormancy and like the VFTs they are all doing well 2 and 3 years along.

One thing I would like to ask is, why do you demand that others provide proof that it can be done while you fail to offer any proof that it can not be done? You are demanding that others give you undenyable proof that skipping first year dormancy is not detrimental. Okay fine, but flip side of the coin, I want you to provide undenyable proof that skipping first year dormancy is detrimental. That seems only fair to me.

 

[peter]

I don't really keep track, but I've got my first vft when I was 11?  But killed it, then I bought another one and seriously got started growing them at the age of 14? or 13? around there and grew them according to some forums and instructions.  The first forum I went on was the Garden web one which got me started and I stayed as a regular member there for quite a while without knowing about petflytrap until someone reccommended it to me.  Every since then I've been growing them till know.
And to anserw your question scotty I bought my first VFT from here in end of summer and grew it in a terrainium fine throughout the winter.  
Here was a picture of it from the middle of summer and as you can see two of them skipped their first dormacy and the others didn't (Bought the other two in spring 2004, I don't really see a difference what so ever in the growth.
So here is my evidence-

Out of the three dente's one of them skipped dormacy
Luckily these guys got lucky and avoided the scotts peat moss.

 

[peter]

gosh darn it I always do double posts on accident....

 

[Bugweed]

There was an earlier thread where I expressed my experience with VFT's in Oceanside/Vista area of Sou Cal. They lived outdoors for 6 years, and the temps never dropped below 65 at all. The plants just kept growing and acting like the plants in the Green Swamp. Without fail, winter rosettes, and slowed down growth, but the plants just kept on living, in spite of all the adverse literature on the subject. VFT's will do whatever they are going to do, and won't even let you in on it. Let the plants have their "heads" and grow the way they want to. As I posted earlier in "December Scapes", in spite of the hard freeze we have had here the last week, the plants are flowering, and growing, as though the freeze never even happened. I just love these strange little plants, and can never have enough of them. But they do not read, and haven't been informed that they require a dormancy.

 

[jimscott]

13 months ago I bought a cobra lily from Lowes and had it kept at a window sill whose temperature got into the low 50's. I was strongly urged to put the plant through dormancy and never really achieved it under the growing conditions I had. The plant survived but didn't thrive and was ultimately lost in a torrential downpour, in an experiment to keep it in a stream so that its roots would have continual water flow. I'll never really know if it was dormant, semi-dormant, stressed out or what. Comments?

 

[Pyro]

Darlingtonia are special beasts because of their finicky nature. I have yet to figure out a way to get the to survive long term. I have purchased them in just about every month of the year and done more odd things to them. They always die. So I doubt that your problems were dormancy related, they were just your Darling being a finicky Darling.